50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
2Ch 30:11
Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

Read the whole chapter. This was during the reign of Hezekiah....who reigned in Judah AFTER 722BC! ALL ISRAEL was called to the Passover in Jerusalem at a time of NATIONAL REPENTANCE.

Your 10 lost tribes heresy is hereby quashed forevermore. Quit professing and teaching this horrific error.
The tribes are mainly lost today. Few can trace their lineages back to a specific tribe. Most Jews just say they are a "Jew" because they don't actually know what specific tribe they might belong to and that is IF they actually have any physical relation to Israel at all. It's a mess over there but at least God knows who is who and who isn't a who :)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
2Ch 30:11
Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

Read the whole chapter. This was during the reign of Hezekiah....who reigned in Judah AFTER 722BC! ALL ISRAEL was called to the Passover in Jerusalem at a time of NATIONAL REPENTANCE.

Your 10 lost tribes heresy is hereby quashed forevermore. Quit professing and teaching this horrific error.
Edwin Thiele concluded that his reign was between c. 715 and 686 BC. According to the biblical narrative, Hezekiah witnessed the destruction of the northern Kingdom of Israel by Sargon's Assyrians in c. 722 BC and was king of Judah during the siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib in 701 BC.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
Israel is Israel, and some of Israel like Jesus and his twelve Jewish disciples is part of the Church. The Church is the Body of Messiah and has nothing to do with Israel. Israel, like the rest of the Gentile world will be under Messiah's rule in the Millennial Kingdom and Israel's tribes will be restored by Messiah as described in Ezekiel 37-48.
"<<<twelve Jewish disciples>>>"?

The strongest candidate for an apostle of the tribe of Judah.......is Judas Iscariot. Only he was from the south. The rest of the apostles were from the north and were probably from all kinds of different northern tribes. Nobody knows for sure.

But there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that at the time of Jesus and long afterwards tribal identities were maintained and perfectly well known.

This 10 lost tribes heresy has everything to do with British Israelism. Another heresy.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
The tribes are mainly lost today. Few can trace their lineages back to a specific tribe. Most Jews just say they are a "Jew" because they don't actually know what specific tribe they might belong to and that is IF they actually have any physical relation to Israel at all. It's a mess over there but at least God knows who is who and who isn't a who :)
I think what you're referring to is the possibility of ***12*** lost tribes.
That is far more sensible actually. But I don't particularly agree with that either.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
This is where your error is. Where a seven headed dragon is obvious symbolism, the literal number of 144,000 Israelites is not, but a symbolic meaning is forced upon it. The fact that the number is broken down into 12,000 per tribe also supports a literal interpretation. It is the same with the thousand years which is mentioned six times from Rev.20:1-7, which demands an interpretation of a literal thousand years.
There is nothing symbolic about the Millennium. What about it would force it to be interpreted symbolically? Nothing!

On the other hand, there is something about the 12 tribes of 12,000 each that does not make sense literally. And so I interpret it symbolically. There are no longer 12 tribes in Israel, and there hasn't been for millennia! Surely you see the problem?

I assure you that God knows exactly who the 144,000 are and what tribes they belong to. Remember, it is God who is having them sealed and therefore, it is not necessary for them to know what tribes the are from. In the same way that God reserved for himself 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal, He has reserved for himself these 144,000 Israelites who will be sealed at the onset of the seven year period.
There is nothing about the 7000 bowing the knee to Baal that requires it not to be taken literally. On the other hand, not knowing what tribes Jews belong to is a problem!

The correct way to read the book of Revelation is that, 'if the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.' If we apply this to the 144,000 Israelites, then the actual number and tribes make good, normal sense and require a literal interpretation.
No, it doesn't make sense for the reason given. There are no 12 tribes of Israel today! And there never can be again. There are no genealogies, and God can't make one if there aren't any tribal gene pools remaining...and there aren't!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
There is nothing symbolic about the Millennium. What about it would force it to be interpreted symbolically? Nothing!

On the other hand, there is something about the 12 tribes of 12,000 each that does not make sense literally. And so I interpret it symbolically. There are no longer 12 tribes in Israel, and there hasn't been for millennia! Surely you see the problem?



There is nothing about the 7000 bowing the knee to Baal that requires it not to be taken literally. On the other hand, not knowing what tribes Jews belong to is a problem!



No, it doesn't make sense for the reason given. There are no 12 tribes of Israel today! And there never can be again. There are no genealogies, and God can't make one if there aren't any tribal gene pools remaining...and there aren't!
No tribal gene pools remaining? There are no 12 tribes remaining today? Surely you jest.

The entire human race is derived from the offspring of 6 individuals. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that ALL lineages can be traced back to whatever point is convenient.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that lineage of Jacob remains and lives on today. The descendents of Jacob did not all go extinct. There are Israelites today that do apprehend their identity and many that do not.

It is an exceedingly simple matter for God to determine which 144,000 Israelite elect He shall seal for duty when the time comes. Their identities are perfectly well known to the Almighty.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
There is nothing symbolic about the Millennium. What about it would force it to be interpreted symbolically? Nothing!

On the other hand, there is something about the 12 tribes of 12,000 each that does not make sense literally. And so I interpret it symbolically. There are no longer 12 tribes in Israel, and there hasn't been for millennia! Surely you see the problem?



There is nothing about the 7000 bowing the knee to Baal that requires it not to be taken literally. On the other hand, not knowing what tribes Jews belong to is a problem!



No, it doesn't make sense for the reason given. There are no 12 tribes of Israel today! And there never can be again. There are no genealogies, and God can't make one if there aren't any tribal gene pools remaining...and there aren't!
Randy........no offense intended but truthfully it is inane nonsensical crazy talk like that that has forced me put you on ignore. I mean how in the world do you respond to such irrational blather?

You are in effect telling us that the entire line of Jacob has gone extinct. Simply outrageous but also brazenly heretical. It is after all Satan who wants to exterminate the Jews. Why are you parroting Satan's desires?

Seriously it is just more than I can take.....my tired old brain just starts misfiring, aghast and in a state of incredulity.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
There are no 12 tribes remaining today? Surely you jest.
That idea seems to be completely negated by the following passages:

"[...] and "the 12" being told by Jesus that THEY will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" Lk22:30,16,18 / Matt19:28 "when" (see/compare Mt25:31-34 for its TIMING ["when"] and LOCATION) [...])"


[quoted from an old post]
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
That idea seems to be completely negated by the following passages:

"[...] and "the 12" being told by Jesus that THEY will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" Lk22:30,16,18 / Matt19:28 "when" (see/compare Mt25:31-34 for its TIMING ["when"] and LOCATION) [...])"


[quoted from an old post]
Absolutely correct. You would think that Randy and Benjamin would know these Scriptures as well. And recognize that their pretensions are heresy. But no such luck I guess.....:oops:
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
That idea seems to be completely negated by the following passages:

"[...] and "the 12" being told by Jesus that THEY will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" Lk22:30,16,18 / Matt19:28 "when" (see/compare Mt25:31-34 for its TIMING ["when"] and LOCATION) [...])"


[quoted from an old post]
With that in mind, there is another point I would like to make:
Almighty God has pledged to preserve all Israel. That would include every tribe. This indefatigable surety required to fulfill His covenants promises and prophecy.

How anyone (let alone any Christian) could think that you could "lose" tribes with a guarantee like that is beyond me.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
How anyone (let alone any Christian) could think that you could "lose" tribes with a guarantee like that is beyond me.
They are lost to their own identity through various things including rejection of the Messiah. Those will not be saved and are no longer members of Israel. They are pruned from the Israel tree. It is written they can be re-attached if they accept Christ but this is on an individual basis and it seems the majority are hell bent to reject Jesus no matter what. Let's pray some see through this blindness and find faith in Christ.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
Randy........no offense intended but truthfully it is inane nonsensical crazy talk like that that has forced me put you on ignore. I mean how in the world do you respond to such irrational blather?

You are in effect telling us that the entire line of Jacob has gone extinct. Simply outrageous but also brazenly heretical. It is after all Satan who wants to exterminate the Jews. Why are you parroting Satan's desires?

Seriously it is just more than I can take.....my tired old brain just starts misfiring, aghast and in a state of incredulity.
Maybe you should start taking me seriously. I've probably been going at this as long as you have. And the difference between us seems to be that I actually take others seriously, even when they disagree with me.

It's God's truth--not ours. And I'll take it any way He wants to give it. I don't care if you want to ban me.

Nothing I said is remotely heretical. What kind of hysteria causes you to think so? I've not remotely suggested I want to see the Jewish People exterminated?

But God intends to make Israel into a Christian nation one day. And in order to accomplish this, many in Israel will have to be removed. Nevertheless, some in Israel are converting to Christ. And I believe a remnant will pass through the endtime judgment to start the nation all over again as a Christian nation.

I have no idea why you think I've said certain things. Instead of reading with an intent to trash me, why don't you read with the intent of understanding me?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
Maybe you should start taking me seriously. I've probably been going at this as long as you have. And the difference between us seems to be that I actually take others seriously, even when they disagree with me.

It's God's truth--not ours. And I'll take it any way He wants to give it. I don't care if you want to ban me.

Nothing I said is remotely heretical. What kind of hysteria causes you to think so? I've not remotely suggested I want to see the Jewish People exterminated?

But God intends to make Israel into a Christian nation one day. And in order to accomplish this, many in Israel will have to be removed. Nevertheless, some in Israel are converting to Christ. And I believe a remnant will pass through the endtime judgment to start the nation all over again as a Christian nation.

I have no idea why you think I've said certain things. Instead of reading with an intent to trash me, why don't you read with the intent of understanding me?
<<<"There are no 12 tribes of Israel today. And there never will be again">>>

It is impossible for any serious Bible student and believers to take those statements of yours seriously. And yes they are heretical.

I say again: God's will is to preserve ethnic national Israel. Evidently your will is to issue them a death certificate proclaiming their extinction.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
<<<"There are no 12 tribes of Israel today. And there never will be again">>>

It is impossible for any serious Bible student and believers to take those statements of yours seriously. And yes they are heretical.

I say again: God's will is to preserve ethnic national Israel. Evidently your will is to issue them a death certificate proclaiming their extinction.
I have a difficult time understanding you--you seem so extreme. Why do you have a chip on your shoulder? Prophecy is a very debatable subject, and is often outside of the range of heretical matters. In particular, the identity of the 144,000 is very debatable. For most of Church history, Israel's place in the Church has been questioned.

I've just told you that I believe national Israel has a place in the Millennial Kingdom as a Christian nation. How is this wanting to "exterminate Israel?" Having to pass through judgment in the endtimes is what *all nations* have to go through. How is this wanting to exterminate nations? And even more, how is this heretical?

My denial that there are no longer any tribal regions in Israel is a fact of history. Claiming otherwise, that this state of affairs can be restored, is pure fantasy, in my opinion. But you can believe what you want.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Absolutely correct. You would think that Randy and Benjamin would know these Scriptures as well. And recognize that their pretensions are heresy. But no such luck I guess.....:oops:
In acts peter gives a sermon.
He points to the restoration of all things.
Part of that is not only israel but the throne of David re established.

The jewish component is eventually restored.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
I have a difficult time understanding you--you seem so extreme. Why do you have a chip on your shoulder? Prophecy is a very debatable subject, and is often outside of the range of heretical matters. In particular, the identity of the 144,000 is very debatable. For most of Church history, Israel's place in the Church has been questioned.

I've just told you that I believe national Israel has a place in the Millennial Kingdom as a Christian nation. How is this wanting to "exterminate Israel?" Having to pass through judgment in the endtimes is what *all nations* have to go through. How is this wanting to exterminate nations? And even more, how is this heretical?

My denial that there are no longer any tribal regions in Israel is a fact of history. Claiming otherwise, that this state of affairs can be restored, is pure fantasy, in my opinion. But you can believe what you want.
Your fantasy is Gods abject inviolable guarantee, and the inevitable result of hundreds of prophecies, both OT and NT..

So tell us: who is going to officiate the sacrifices of the millennial temple? Priests of the line of the Zadok (Eze 48:11)? Or nondescript Christians?

So tell us: What is the significance of Luke 1:32-33? How could it possibly be that Jesus will "reign over the house of Jacob for ever"......if as YOU say the 12 tribes "never will be again"?
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
With that in mind, there is another point I would like to make:
Almighty God has pledged to preserve all Israel. That would include every tribe. This indefatigable surety required to fulfill His covenants promises and prophecy.

How anyone (let alone any Christian) could think that you could "lose" tribes with a guarantee like that is beyond me.
The loss of regional "tribes" in Israel is a fact of history. Genealogies aside, the tribal allotments gradually dwindled until they formed into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah.

They were still known as "tribes," because they were, in effect, separate sub-ethnicities, congregating around a particular patriarch. But politically, they lost significance with the emergence of the two kingdoms.

During the time of this division in Israel, the northern Kingdom of Israel became associated with idolatry, while the Southern Kingdom of Judah began to attract people from all tribes who wanted to maintain worship of the one true God. God had always intended there to be a single worship for all the tribes of Israel, and so Jerusalem was appointed to be the place for them all to gather. With the rise of apostasy in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, however, people in all tribes began to migrate permanently to Judah, and eventually became known as "Jews."

After the restoration of Israel, following the Babylonian Captivity, the tribes merged together as a single nation and a single Kingdom, comprising the "Jewish People." All tribes were resident in the nation, but the tribal divisions were virtually reduced to insignificance, politically. Certainly, the tribes were no longer known as autonomous regions--that idea had long since passed from history.

The important element in all 12 tribes was that they all, equally, inherited the promised nation. Israel was specifically promised to Abraham--not 12 tribes, but a single *nation.* The 12 tribes were merely the pathway leading to the promised nation. The significance is that all parts of Israel, namely, all 12 tribes, were equally heirs to this national inheritance.

For a time, genealogies for the 12 tribes remained important in the OT period, because as long as the Law was in play, a tribe was singled out for priestly duty, namely Levi. Furthermore, the promised Messiah had to come from Judah. And so, there were reasons that individual tribes were pointed out. But for our purpose here, the fact that all 12 tribes are referred to, equally, is so that it is known that God's promise to all 12 tribes would be fulfilled as an equal right to the inheritance of national Israel.

And indeed today, Israel consists of the Jewish People who have been drawn from all 12 tribes, without discrimination. That is the significance in mentioning them at all, I believe.

It remains important to characterize Israel as the biological posterity of Abraham, identified through Jacob, and consisting of all 12 patriarchs of the 12 tribes. It was God's plan, obviously, to include all 12 tribes for a variety of reasons. Some were set apart for various tasks, all of which contributed to the concept of a NT nation, which obviously has yet to be fulfilled. All 12 tribes contributed to the OT worship that has now been fulfilled in Christianity.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
Your fantasy is Gods abject inviolable guarantee, and the inevitable result of hundreds of prophecies, both OT and NT..

So tell us: who is going to officiate the sacrifices of the millennial temple? Priests of the line of the Zadok (Eze 48:11)? Or nondescript Christians?

So tell us: What is the significance of Luke 1:32-33? How could it possibly be that Jesus will "reign over the house of Jacob for ever"......if as YOU say the 12 tribes "never will be again"?
I think you completely misunderstand my position. It certainly isn't heretical.

I don't discount Israel as one of the many promised nations assured to Abraham. Abraham was promised both a biological nation, descended from himself, and a company of nations, united by Abraham's faith.

I don't believe there will be a Millennial temple. The OT temple was patterned after the heavenly temple, viewed as Christ himself in the New Jerusalem. Jesus will come to reign over all nations, including Israel. This Kingdom will begin in the Millennial age, when mankind is still mortal. Eventually, all nations will consolidate into something new in the Eternal Age of the New Earth.

When biblical prophecy utilizes OT imagery to refer to NT realities, the language is understood to be symbolic of something greater in the NT era. There is no need to see this OT imagery as literal.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
In acts peter gives a sermon.
He points to the restoration of all things.
Part of that is not only israel but the throne of David re established.

The jewish component is eventually restored.
I do believe in the restoration of national Israel, in the form of a future Christian nation. This will happen after Christ's coming, in the Millennial age.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
The loss of regional "tribes" in Israel is a fact of history. Genealogies aside, the tribal allotments gradually dwindled until they formed into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah.

They were still known as "tribes," because they were, in effect, separate sub-ethnicities, congregating around a particular patriarch. But politically, they lost significance with the emergence of the two kingdoms.

During the time of this division in Israel, the northern Kingdom of Israel became associated with idolatry, while the Southern Kingdom of Judah began to attract people from all tribes who wanted to maintain worship of the one true God. God had always intended there to be a single worship for all the tribes of Israel, and so Jerusalem was appointed to be the place for them all to gather. With the rise of apostasy in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, however, people in all tribes began to migrate permanently to Judah, and eventually became known as "Jews."

After the restoration of Israel, following the Babylonian Captivity, the tribes merged together as a single nation and a single Kingdom, comprising the "Jewish People." All tribes were resident in the nation, but the tribal divisions were virtually reduced to insignificance, politically. Certainly, the tribes were no longer known as autonomous regions--that idea had long since passed from history.

The important element in all 12 tribes was that they all, equally, inherited the promised nation. Israel was specifically promised to Abraham--not 12 tribes, but a single *nation.* The 12 tribes were merely the pathway leading to the promised nation. The significance is that all parts of Israel, namely, all 12 tribes, were equally heirs to this national inheritance.

For a time, genealogies for the 12 tribes remained important in the OT period, because as long as the Law was in play, a tribe was singled out for priestly duty, namely Levi. Furthermore, the promised Messiah had to come from Judah. And so, there were reasons that individual tribes were pointed out. But for our purpose here, the fact that all 12 tribes are referred to, equally, is so that it is known that God's promise to all 12 tribes would be fulfilled as an equal right to the inheritance of national Israel.

And indeed today, Israel consists of the Jewish People who have been drawn from all 12 tribes, without discrimination. That is the significance in mentioning them at all, I believe.

It remains important to characterize Israel as the biological posterity of Abraham, identified through Jacob, and consisting of all 12 patriarchs of the 12 tribes. It was God's plan, obviously, to include all 12 tribes for a variety of reasons. Some were set apart for various tasks, all of which contributed to the concept of a NT nation, which obviously has yet to be fulfilled. All 12 tribes contributed to the OT worship that has now been fulfilled in Christianity.
You provide a lot of opinions and commentary and not one single solitary scripture or prophecy to back it up. No sale.