KEEPING TORAH.

Avinu · Jul 12, 2011

I'm not writing this thread for responses, of course anyone is welcome to if they would please do so in love. I'm writing this more to just share why I believe keeping Torah is for today as ever before. With that said.

John 1:1-2,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 14)And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

In these verses I believe clearly that Yeshua/Jesus is the foundation of the entire Bible. Since the Bible shows that the OT is a foreshadow of Yeshua, then I believe that says Yeshua is Torah. Torah is not being under law, it is being in obedience to YHWH. It is a child obeying the rules of the house of his father.

Let me say now that this has nothing to do with sacrificial ceremonies, Yeshua is and always will be the final sacrifice for sin. I KNOW we are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest we boast. Yeshua is my Adon(Lord) and Meshiach(Messiah). Without Him I cannot enter into heaven. I also know that keeping
Torah does not earn me brownie points nor will it give me entry to heaven. With that said.

Matt. 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah(law) or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. "For assuredly, I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE TORAH(LAW) TILL ALL IS FUFILLED. "Whoever therefore breaks ONE of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 7:6-9 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
"This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me.
Teachings as doctrines the
commandments of men."
"FOR LAYING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pitchers, and cups, and many other such things you do." He said to them, All too well you REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, that you may keep your tradition.

Unfortunately the church has done this and became no different than the pharisees, with the different denominations, and rules, forcing people to convert to their doctrine of how to live for Yeshua instead of sticking with God's word. That is being under the law.

1st John 2:3-4 Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we KEEP His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and DOES NOT keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him.

There are so many of these verses of keeping God's commandments throughout the whole Bible, but I love how He puts it one more time at the end.

Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who DO His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Now I know if anyone responds to this, some will try to use Paul's writings to prove there point. There's one problem with that, you can't use Paul's writings to prove other scripture wrong, it doesn't work that way. If you think Paul's writing is proving other scripture wrong than it is you who have read it incorrectly. Otherwise we are doing this for nothing. Because God's word cannot ever be wrong period, which it isn't. It's us who is messing it up.

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change."

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

There is no misunderstanding these verses. It is unfortunate that some just won't accept them, because they want to believe that since they are saved by grace, and they claim to believe that they have a free ride and don't have to obey.

The number one commandment is, " To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself."

What do you think that means? The greatest way you show God how much you truly love Him is keeping His commandments. Being obedient.
We can say we love Him all day with our mouth, but our actions and daily lives show the real deal. Can you go through the Ten Commandments and say you actually keep even one right. And saying no one can keep them is a cop out. That verse pertains to the pharisees who added so many rules to man saying it was of God, that even they couldn't keep them.
We as the body of Messiah have to quit making excuses for our actions and be obedient. God does not make it hard.

Matt. 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

1st John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1st John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are NOT BURDENSOME.

My prayer is that this is received with spiritual eyes and ears. I hope that this is taken into prayerful consideration, and study it for yourself. Again if anyone decides to respond, please do so in love.
Sorry it was long, because I hate long writing to read myself. Shalom, Avinu

Gimzani · Jul 12, 2011

I would like to caution those who would use the words of Paul to argue against scripture. First, remember that the epistiles are letter concerning scripture - not scripture itself. I will agree that Paul was inspired with the Holy Spirit - no doubt. But you cannot use the word of man to contradict the word of God.

Also - remember what Peter warned us about the writings of Paul

2Pe 3:15-18 and consider [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know [this] beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him [be] the glory both now and forever. Amen.

This is not to say that Paul was saying ANYTHING WRONG - far be it from him. He was a student under the most famous Torah Scholar of his time, Gamaliel - in order to study under him you had to MEMORIZE the Torah.

Paul did NOT come against Torah, he taught it!

Just like Messiah Yahoshua - blessed be He.

Shalom

Avinu · Jul 12, 2011

I would like to caution those who would use the words of Paul to argue against scripture. First, remember that the epistiles are letter concerning scripture - not scripture itself. I will agree that Paul was inspired with the Holy Spirit - no doubt. But you cannot use the word of man to contradict the word of God.

Also - remember what Peter warned us about the writings of Paul

2Pe 3:15-18 and consider [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know [this] beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him [be] the glory both now and forever. Amen.

This is not to say that Paul was saying ANYTHING WRONG - far be it from him. He was a student under the most famous Torah Scholar of his time, Gamaliel - in order to study under him you had to MEMORIZE the Torah.

Paul did NOT come against Torah, he taught it!

Just like Messiah Yahoshua - blessed be He.

Shalom

Amen Gimzani, I would to emphasize on one verse you have there. 2Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, WHICH UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

That's it. Shalom

Cleante · Jul 12, 2011

I don't agree with your assertion with 'The Word' (Logos) in the Hymn to the Logos in the Prologue of the Gospel According to John. It's more of a statement against Gnosticism than it is talking about scripture... In Ancient Greek philosophy, the Logos was the divine reason that pervaded the universe and now St. John is saying that Jesus Christ is that Logos (Divine Reason) that "became flesh and dwelt among us."

Other than that, I don't have any contention with the rest of your post .

Hearer · Jul 12, 2011

i believe you are right in principle, that we must follow Torah. But Torah also means guidelines and instructions. The bible is full of instructions about liturgy from the beginning, which is the right way to give God thanks and praise. Too often these days liturgy is thrown out the window and people want to be obedient but do not know how. So they reduce christianity to weekly:
1)moral lessons (which actually equals legalism)
2)having exciting emotions (even when David danced before God it was during a procession of the ark of the covenant, in gratitude and thanks for its restoration)

Instead of morals and enthusiasm we should bear the following other examples in mind:

a) Adam as priest overseeing the garden
b) Abel as priest sacrificing animals as grateful worship
c) Noah as priest sacrificing to celebrate the new Noah-dic covenant having deliberately carried ritually clean animals on board the ark and saved.
d) Abraham building altars; Jacob building altars in gratitude to God showing himself on the stairway.
e) Melchizedek accepting offerings from Abraham
f) Jesus freely offering himself as the passover lamb

Should we not also build altars to celebrate, like these examples, to show ourselves to be free priests in the kingdom (Revelation)

Why after all these types for modern free liturgical worship do we do away with liturgy in favour of morals which destroy and emotions which are privately exuberant in services which lack the altar of sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving?

If we were truly free we would offer our thanks and praise for our redemption on altars like the Israelites in the desert. We can do this daily and weekly by sharing in the eternal sacrifice of the Lamb.

It is right to give him due thanks and praise, an ongoing song of remption. LIke the everlasting song of the Lamb: Holy Holy Holy is the Lamb

Avinu · Jul 12, 2011

Hearer, I understand what you're saying. But you have to remember that the building of altars and things alike, were done of there own accord (except in the temple) What I'm talking about is walking in obedience to God by keeping what He has commanded us to keep forever. I.E. Ten commandments, feasts of Lev. 23 etc. Shalom

Hearer · Jul 12, 2011

Avinu said:

I agree that the levitical feasts are a good type for mordern worship too. We should celebrate some celebrations for many days as a sign of our praise and thanksgiving. We should especially celebrate in our New Testament times the feast of Jesus advent and passion as the passover.

I know that in the liturgical church, the ancient church, advent and lent and easter are celebrated for weeks on end these modern days. Lent and then easter are epecially significant. But there is not enough genuine joyful celebration when work is stopped and holidays had in praise in front of God for all he has done.

As for the 10 commandments it is better to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to be able to love and serve the Lord fully. Then the commandments would not be legalistically followed as laws but be our new and joyful activity in perpetual celebration to God.

This with the help of the Holy Spirit who as the prophets said would replace our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh and also circcumcise our hearts. Regeneration then is of primary importance but this is the work of God and cananot be pursued by obeying any law other than seeking God's face.

Avinu · Jul 12, 2011

Hearer, we are getting into something a little off from this thread. I'm going to make a thread about holiday celebrations. Uh-oh. Lol. Shalom

Hearer · Jul 12, 2011

Avinu said:

LOL..........

Megatron · Jul 12, 2011

19 “‘Keep my decrees. “‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.
“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. (You follow these checking your shirt tags and such to make sure the aren't blended fabrics? What about mules should we kill them since they are a crossbreed?)

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God. (I dont know ive planted vegetable gardens before...no one ever told me nor was i struck down for ignoring this one)

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.(yeah rare meat, im sure most eat meat)

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.(ok i can agree with this one)

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.(yeah in modern society its not a good thing to look like a caveman, take a razor to it)

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD. (i might actually get this verse tattooed on my back or somewhere)

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.(this one is hilarious judging by the fact that most christians tend to be republicans and the republicans are basically anti-immigration anymore)

These were only laws in one chapter that made no sense and i doubt anyone can claim to keep them all. so you follow your torah, i follow Christ.

Gimzani · Jul 12, 2011

You DO know that Jesus Christ was a Torah keeper, right?

1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also [imitate] Christ.

Paul kept Torah too.

Grandpa · Jul 12, 2011

Gimzani said:

Paul didn't keep Torah. Paul tried to keep Torah. Jesus Christ kept Torah and He is the only one that ever has. All the rest try to keep Torah. Important distinction is it not?

Hearer · Jul 12, 2011

Grandpa said:

in a sense you are right g-pa. Jesus could keep torah because he was free; he could rest the sabbath rest even while working.

AnandaHya · Jul 12, 2011

I believe in keeping God's commandments but what is God's commandments and what are the traditions of men?

we no longer have to have the men circumcised in the flesh and the sacrifices have been done away with. Both of which the Torah commanded people keep. However was that God's commandment? What is of the Law since the beginning of time and what is added on because of sin?

I guess that is why we need the Sword of the Spirit?

Galatians 3:19
[ Purpose of the Law ] What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Matthew 22:29-33
New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

Matthew 13:35
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “ I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

distinctiveministry · Jul 12, 2011

Grandpa said:

Actually, Paul did keep Torah. You have to realize that the sacrifices and other observances were PART of Torah, meaning that those who violated a Law were still Torah observant if they made the appropriate amends and continued in Torah. Torah-keeping or Torah-observance is not a matter of perfection, but of perseverence.

Avinu · Jul 12, 2011

We have to use common sense of what part of Torah is fulfilled and what part we are to still keep.

1) sacrifices-done
2) All ceremonial things through high priest- done, Yeshua is now our High Priest
3) Lev. 11 What we can and can't eat.- still stands, what God declares unclean, He will not turn around and say "oh I changed my mind go ahead". What God has declared unclean, man cannot declare clean.
4) Ten Commandments-In full affect
5) Lev. 23 7 Feasts of God- In full affect
6) tzitzits( tassels) Yeshua wore them, so are we to imitate Christ

To keep these things in Torah is only as hard as we make it. If we look at it as a issue than it will be, but if we look at it with a surrendered heart that is truly seeking to show God obedience and be pleasing in His sight, then we look forward to these things. Shalom

Grandpa · Jul 12, 2011

distinctiveministry said:

I see you miss the distinction and therefore the importance of Jesus. Keeping the Law IS about perfection. Otherwise what do you do to Gods Law?? You bring it down to something that we can persevere in? A pseudo righteousness? And what have you done to the cross of Christ by saying it is not a matter of perfection but of perseverence? If we all just persevere did we need the Lord Jesus to die upon the cross? We most assurredly do need Jesus if it is about perfection. Because without Jesus we can do nothing. Don't you see the danger in leading people back to the Law?? Don't you know about yokes and burdens??

God Bless You

AnandaHya · Jul 12, 2011

question about 3 Avinu. how do you read this passage from scripture?

Acts 10
9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

Avinu · Jul 12, 2011

AnandaHya, if you read the rest of the chapter, in verse 34 Peter realizes God was telling him there is no partiality between Jews and Gentiles. It had nothing to do with actual food. Shalom

WeStand · Jul 12, 2011

Avinu said:

I'm not writing this thread for responses, of course anyone is welcome to if they would please do so in love. I'm writing this more to just share why I believe keeping Torah is for today as ever before. With that said.

John 1:1-2,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 14)And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

In these verses I believe clearly that Yeshua/Jesus is the foundation of the entire Bible. Since the Bible shows that the OT is a foreshadow of Yeshua, then I believe that says Yeshua is Torah. Torah is not being under law, it is being in obedience to YHWH. It is a child obeying the rules of the house of his father.

Let me say now that this has nothing to do with sacrificial ceremonies, Yeshua is and always will be the final sacrifice for sin. I KNOW we are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest we boast. Yeshua is my Adon(Lord) and Meshiach(Messiah). Without Him I cannot enter into heaven. I also know that keeping
Torah does not earn me brownie points nor will it give me entry to heaven. With that said.

Matt. 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah(law) or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. "For assuredly, I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE TORAH(LAW) TILL ALL IS FUFILLED. "Whoever therefore breaks ONE of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 7:6-9 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
"This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me.
Teachings as doctrines the
commandments of men."
"FOR LAYING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pitchers, and cups, and many other such things you do." He said to them, All too well you REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, that you may keep your tradition.

Unfortunately the church has done this and became no different than the pharisees, with the different denominations, and rules, forcing people to convert to their doctrine of how to live for Yeshua instead of sticking with God's word. That is being under the law.

1st John 2:3-4 Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we KEEP His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and DOES NOT keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him.

There are so many of these verses of keeping God's commandments throughout the whole Bible, but I love how He puts it one more time at the end.

Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who DO His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Now I know if anyone responds to this, some will try to use Paul's writings to prove there point. There's one problem with that, you can't use Paul's writings to prove other scripture wrong, it doesn't work that way. If you think Paul's writing is proving other scripture wrong than it is you who have read it incorrectly. Otherwise we are doing this for nothing. Because God's word cannot ever be wrong period, which it isn't. It's us who is messing it up.

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change."

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

There is no misunderstanding these verses. It is unfortunate that some just won't accept them, because they want to believe that since they are saved by grace, and they claim to believe that they have a free ride and don't have to obey.

The number one commandment is, " To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself."

What do you think that means? The greatest way you show God how much you truly love Him is keeping His commandments. Being obedient.
We can say we love Him all day with our mouth, but our actions and daily lives show the real deal. Can you go through the Ten Commandments and say you actually keep even one right. And saying no one can keep them is a cop out. That verse pertains to the pharisees who added so many rules to man saying it was of God, that even they couldn't keep them.
We as the body of Messiah have to quit making excuses for our actions and be obedient. God does not make it hard.

Matt. 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

1st John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1st John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are NOT BURDENSOME.

My prayer is that this is received with spiritual eyes and ears. I hope that this is taken into prayerful consideration, and study it for yourself. Again if anyone decides to respond, please do so in love.
Sorry it was long, because I hate long writing to read myself. Shalom, Avinu

PRAISE BE TO YEHOVAH : JUDAH BE TO YESHUA MESSIAH
JESUS THE CHRIST

KEEPING TORAH.

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