Mary as the mother of God?

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catholic123

Guest
Speaking to the Divinity of Jesus, i think Mary did not deserve the credit for being the mother of God since Jesus Divinity is already pre-existed before Mary exist (Micah 5:2). She did not conceived Jesus' Divinity.

But speaking Jesus in the flesh - Mary did not even conceived Jesus since the Holy Spirit is the One who conceive it.

In biology we know that a baby is rooted from the union of two fertile sperm and egg cells... when the sperm meets the egg cell then the process of life begins, multiplying cells, and later on eventually become a baby. But since Mary, at this time, has never been touched by any male (that's why she birthed a virgin birth) it is a miracle that has happened to her; so there's no union between the sperm and the egg cell that occur here.

So therefore Mary does not have any credit for being a mother of Jesus Humanity since she even does not have a blood connection to Jesus. That's why Jesus is described as the second Adam, remember the Hebrews? He has no beginning and the end - He has no origin.

Mary only became the mother of Jesus by the Law - since she is the guardian -
Clearly you have not read scripture then. Because if you did, you would see that Jesus held Mary as more than a legal mother. At the wedding feast at Cana, He says my time has not come, and Mary simply says do whatever He tells you. And, although Jesus was resistant at first, once His mother tells Him, He makes the wine. So clearly she is not just a legal mother. Also, the Church doesn't worship Mary, we ask her intercession. At the wedding feast, the servants go to Mary first. If we look at this passage in a shallow sense, we can say, awe, what a nice miracle. But if we look deeper, we see a model for us. The servants went to Mary, and Mary went to her son. He was hesitant but it was because SHE had asked Him that he did it. In the same way we can ask Mary to pray for us, and she will take our prayers to God. Just as we ask each other to pray for us, we can also ask the saints to pray for us, especially the mother of Jesus. Although she didn't make Jesus God, she still shares in Him in a very special way. Notice Jesus is said as a king. And the mother of kings throughout the old testament is referred to as the queen. So is it a stretch to call Mary queen. Not by her own power, but by the power of Jesus. Jesus loved her. He was fully flesh and he loved his mother as someone of fully flesh. Just because He was God and conceived by the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean he just pushed his mother off because "she didn't have anything to do with Him being God". No he loved her dearly, and he will love her forever as His mother. And he gives her to us as our mother when he say son behold your mother and mother behold your son. He wasn't just talking to John, he was talking about all of us.
 
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catholic123

Guest

The only problem with this thinking is Jesus was never in Mary's womb. The breath of life, or the putting of the spirit of Christ into the flesh that Mary bore did not happen until the fleshly body was already outside the womb. Jesus the whole 9 months mary carried the body, was in heaven. It was not until the moment of Marys birth, then he set aside his diety and entered the flesh of the baby Mary gave birth to
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You can't separate Jesus into God and Man. He was FULLY man and FULLY God. So it doesn't make sense to say that while his flesh lived in Mary, He lived in Heaven. His flesh and divinity can't be separated.
 
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catholic123

Guest
Where do you come up with the Crazy Idea that Jesus left heaven to spend nine months in the womb? where there was no life?

At one moment, Jesus was the God of heaven. The next minute, he was a baby in a manger.
He is God, so while he dwelt on Earth, could he not also have been in Heaven. He was fully flesh and fully God, so he couldn't be separated and then just magically put together at His birth
 
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catholic123

Guest
Jesus Christ is the SON of God. How more clear could the Holy Bible possibly be? Jesus prayed to God, he spoke to him just before he died on the cross, he is SEATED at his right hand, we must go THROUGH him in order to get to the Father, good grief....I could quote scripture after scripture on how he is THE SON and not our creator. For those that presist in not believing, they will find out instantly upon death when they are in darkness forever. I pray for the lost souls, sincerely.
He is the son, but not in the sense of a separate being as God the Father and the Spirit. They have separate personalities, but they are one being. Since each of the 3 are perfect (because they are God) there is no logical way that they could be separate. If they are all 3 perfect bringing, then they must be one. And as one, that one being God, created all. Although they are referred to as doing separate things like God the Father creates and God the Son saves and God the Holy Spirit works in our hearts, they could, by there perfect and oneness of nature, never do anything outside of the others. Jesus is as much creator as the Father because they are one with the holy Spirit. Son is simply a term given, not to be taken as in Son like on earth. They are one and everything done by God is done by all three of the persons in the one God.
 
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catholic123

Guest
The Scripture records that John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb for joy when Jesus (in Mary's womb) visited. Seems to me that He was there, and John the Baptist was well aware of who had come to visit.
Nice man, I would totally agree.
 
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catholic123

Guest
The Bible is the word of God, but we also know that the Traditions passed onto us through His Church are also His word. We are told to hold fast to the traditions that the apostles taught us, both written AND by word of mouth. Both combined are the word of the Lord.

As far as the claim that the Catholic Church held people back from the Scriptures, a simple cursory look through history will easily disprove this claim. The Catholic Church reads more Scripture in their services that the majority of Protestant churches. Throughout the course of three years, if one attends a Catholic parish devoutly, you will have about 99% of the Bible read aloud to you (I think they skip some of the Song of Solomon and some of the long lineages/lists in Chronicles/Kings). The Church has also safeguarded the Scriptures, working dilligently to preserve them and ensure that translations are accurate lest people be led astray.

The Scripture is quite clear that the Church, NOT the individual is the pillar and foundation of Truth. The Bible's proper place is in the context of the Church, which was empowered by the Holy Spirit to teach the gospel to all men and help interpret it.
In fact, I read a book of a protestant minister, one who knew his bible very well, who converted after coming to one Catholic mass. Why. Because he saw Gods scriptures revealed before his eyes. Not only in the readings, but in everything that they did. Every time one of the call response parts and prayers and the order, he realized it was all biblical. Look at John 6 and the feeding of 5 thousand. A shallow look will give us the, wow that is a cool miracle. But lets look deeper. He begins by feeding them with His word, as He teaches them. How does the Catholic Mass begin. Liturgy of the word, where scripture is read and meditated on. Then, although protestants will say that Gods word is enough, Jesus says, but they still need to be physically fed, saying his word was not all they needed. Then he asks the apostles to bring him bread and fish. And they do, just as Catholics bring the gifts to the altar of the Lord. Then he multiplies them, and here is where it is interesting. Many would say that Jesus feeds us himself. But rather than feed them himself, he has his apostles feed them and break them into groups (like Catholic diocese with an apostle (the Bishop) as its head) Notice he didn't feed them himself. He is setting up a model because he knows that he will soon not physically be here as he is now. He knows he must have others feed his people for him. And looking at the second part of the Catholic Mass, the liturgy of the Eucharist, or Jesus' body as our spiritual food, we see the similarities between this John 6 and the Catholic Mass. The Church must feed Jesus people, with both His word, and with His physical food (for our soul). And just as Jesus had his apostles feed the people the food He had made, the Christ uses its Bishops/Priests (which are direct descendants of the apostles) to feed His people today.
 
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Tobby17

Guest
Actually saying Mary is the mother of God is totally blasphemous. As God himself created Mary not Mary bringing God into this world. Actually, the only part Mary plays in the whole of this is to carry Jesus in the womb for months and deliver him.. Every other thing was done by God...

And Mary was chosen not because anything was special about her or because she was Holy,it's because she was divinely favored by God (Luke 1:28). Did God choose Paul because he was Holy?, NO!. Paul was actually a prosecutor of the Church.. God will not choose anybody because he or she is Holy, God will choose anybody he pleases, irrespective of their present physical or spiritual life.. (Jer1:5,1Cor1: 27-30)

God Bless. Amen! :)
 
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catholic123

Guest
Actually saying Mary is the mother of God is totally blasphemous. As God himself created Mary not Mary bringing God into this world. Actually, the only part Mary plays in the whole of this is to carry Jesus in the womb for months and deliver him.. Every other thing was done by God...

And Mary was chosen not because anything was special about her or because she was Holy,it's because she was divinely favored by God (Luke 1:28). Did God choose Paul because he was Holy?, NO!. Paul was actually a prosecutor of the Church.. God will not choose anybody because he or she is Holy, God will choose anybody he pleases, irrespective of their present physical or spiritual life.. (Jer1:5,1Cor1: 27-30)

God Bless. Amen! :)
By calling her mother of God we are not saying she had anything to do with His divinity or conception. But we are acknowledged a logical fact that she was his mother. And he himself calls her His mother. And agani, since he is perfect, becuase He is GOd, he couldn't be separated and call her his physical mother, she is just his mother, the mother of God.
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
Remember. Mary was a sinner when she concieved, She was a sinner while she carried the Son, And she was a sinner until the day she died.

Her son redeemed her like he redeemed the rest of us. He was not only her son, but her savior.

She is to be blessed, Because of what she had to go through (a fornicator or adulterer, giving birth to a bastard son) which in her day women who did this were outcasts of society. Yet she did this for God. and is blessed because of it.
Chapter and verse that says "Mary is a sinner". Chapter and verse that says "Mary did not overcome her sins". Everyone is a sinner, whether they sin or not. Don't you understand that merely being born makes one a sinner, one is born with the ancestral sin, which is "the knowledge of good and evil". Mary knew good and evil from the day she was born, just as all human beings, except for Jesus Christ, do. But name one verse of Scripture that says, "These are the sins of Mary." The sins of Mary aren't listed in the Bible. We should not, therefore, presume that there are many sins she committed. We know however, from Scripture, that St. Peter sinned, and St. Paul sinned, and St. Thomas was less than pleasing to Christ, because he doubted and demanded to "see" before he would believe in Christ's Divinity. There is not a Scriptural account of any sins of St. John the Baptist, of St. John the Beloved apostle, of St. Andrew the first-called apostle of Christ, of St. James, of St. Jude, of St. Bartholomew, of St. Philip, of St. Barnabas, of St. Timothy, of St. Titus, or any other of the seventy disciples of Christ, etc. We cannot presume they had no sin, as the Bible says all have sinned. But we cannot presume they had more sins than the rest of us. They may have been mostly holy, and mostly free of sins. By God's grace. We, here in America, however, have sinned greatly, and fallen short greatly from the glory of God. I know I have sinned a multitude of sins. I would not dare to presume to try to judge these things, and to call Mary the holy Mother of God, "a sinner". This is Protestant heresy, a heresy that not even Martin Luther, who said, "Be a sinner, and sin boldly!", committed. Luther knew what all true Christians know: Mary is the ever-virgin blessed Theotokos, the Mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ, in His humanity.
Mary didn't sin; she just had ancestral sin, and was saved from this by Christ, thus she sang, "My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". All generations will call Mary ever-virgin "Blessed!"
God bless you always and for all times in Christ Jesus our holy Saviour. Amen.
In Erie PA USA July 15, 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

 

duewell

Senior Member
Mar 5, 2011
350
9
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does anything in this discussion determine if we are saved? it might make for a nice debate, but does it actually have anything to do with my salvation? you want to debate something? chew on this.

mary was a Jew, did she convert to Christianity? was mary baptised? did she take communion in remembrence of what her son did after witnessing it? if she didnt, would Jesus damn his own mother to hell? does Jesus become resentfull when we ask his mother to interced on our behalf? does she become resentfull that people are asking for her intercisions on their behalf?

maybe it is a special relationship between them that we dont understand. dont you think Jesus the embodiment of love in human form, who sacraficed his sinless flesh for our salvation, for LOVE, might take it a little personal when you are talking about his mother? dont you think his mother is sitting near him in heaven right now ? her display of faith in God by giving birth and witnessing her sons sacrifice firsthand is a wonderous testimony about her love. imagine what it would be like to have been raised by a mother like that. her son was raised without sin, didnt she contribute to raising her son? most of us dont have anything even close to the kind of woman mary was as a mother. and we still love our mothers and try to do as they ask. i cant imagine what Jesus thinks about these conversations. i certainly wouldnt want to try and explain to him, what we think about his mother. i just hope my sin of envy will be forgiven.

Duewell
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
really?... is there a proof for this?
Yes, Mary is the Mother of God, the blessed Theotokos (God-bearer), because God the Son, Jesus Christ, in His humanity, is the Son of Mary. To deny Mary as Mother of God is to deny that Christ is God.
This was taught she is Theotokos at the 3rd ecumenical council, the Council of Ephesus, in 431 AD, and this is a council of the Church that Christ founded, so, to reject this Council is to reject the Church that Christ founded, and thus to reject Christ Himself, as Christ works through, with, in, and by, His Orthodox Church.
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
does anything in this discussion determine if we are saved? it might make for a nice debate, but does it actually have anything to do with my salvation? you want to debate something? chew on this.

mary was a Jew, did she convert to Christianity? was mary baptised? did she take communion in remembrence of what her son did after witnessing it? if she didnt, would Jesus damn his own mother to hell? does Jesus become resentfull when we ask his mother to interced on our behalf? does she become resentfull that people are asking for her intercisions on their behalf?

maybe it is a special relationship between them that we dont understand. dont you think Jesus the embodiment of love in human form, who sacraficed his sinless flesh for our salvation, for LOVE, might take it a little personal when you are talking about his mother? dont you think his mother is sitting near him in heaven right now ? her display of faith in God by giving birth and witnessing her sons sacrifice firsthand is a wonderous testimony about her love. imagine what it would be like to have been raised by a mother like that. her son was raised without sin, didnt she contribute to raising her son? most of us dont have anything even close to the kind of woman mary was as a mother. and we still love our mothers and try to do as they ask. i cant imagine what Jesus thinks about these conversations. i certainly wouldnt want to try and explain to him, what we think about his mother. i just hope my sin of envy will be forgiven.

Duewell
Do we have to remain ignorant of many of the facts and teachings of the Scriptures, because it may not be necessary to know them all in order to be "saved". There is more to salvation than being saved "from" our sins. We are also saved for something. After we are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9) by grace through faith (ibid.), we are saved "for" / "unto" / "into" good works, which God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Salvation is also for knowing all of the doctrines of the Bible, including the fact that Mary is the Mother of God, and ever-virgin, and that through her prayers we are brought to Jesus Christ, as she says: "Whatever He (Jesus Christ) says to you, do it."
God save us.
Through the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother, LORD JESUS CHRIST, SON OF GOD, have mercy on us: AMEN.

 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
Actually saying Mary is the mother of God is totally blasphemous. As God himself created Mary not Mary bringing God into this world. Actually, the only part Mary plays in the whole of this is to carry Jesus in the womb for months and deliver him.. Every other thing was done by God...

And Mary was chosen not because anything was special about her or because she was Holy,it's because she was divinely favored by God (Luke 1:28). Did God choose Paul because he was Holy?, NO!. Paul was actually a prosecutor of the Church.. God will not choose anybody because he or she is Holy, God will choose anybody he pleases, irrespective of their present physical or spiritual life.. (Jer1:5,1Cor1: 27-30)

God Bless. Amen! :)


So tell me, WHO is Mary the mother of then? Are you saying Jesus is not God?
 
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Tobby17

Guest
So tell me, WHO is Mary the mother of then? Are you saying Jesus is not God?
Maybe the prayer should be changed to Mary, mother of Jesus in the flesh. Maybe we'll understand it better that way.. Mother of God is simply outrageous... xD
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
So, you arre saying you don't believe Jesus is God?

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catholic123

Guest
Actually saying Mary is the mother of God is totally blasphemous. As God himself created Mary not Mary bringing God into this world. Actually, the only part Mary plays in the whole of this is to carry Jesus in the womb for months and deliver him.. Every other thing was done by God...

And Mary was chosen not because anything was special about her or because she was Holy,it's because she was divinely favored by God (Luke 1:28). Did God choose Paul because he was Holy?, NO!. Paul was actually a prosecutor of the Church.. God will not choose anybody because he or she is Holy, God will choose anybody he pleases, irrespective of their present physical or spiritual life.. (Jer1:5,1Cor1: 27-30)

God Bless. Amen! :)
THis might help from this website: Mary: Mother of God


Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
Maybe the prayer should be changed to Mary, mother of Jesus in the flesh. Maybe we'll understand it better that way.. Mother of God is simply outrageous... xD
Honestly I don't know why your getting all twisted up over the title Mother of God, the logic behind is simple and really indisputable

Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of Jesus, therefore Mary is the Mother of God.

The only way you can really deny the title is to say something along the lines of Jesus wasn't God until he was born.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
Jesus had to be born to someone. That doesn’t make Mary the mother of God, even though I believe Jesus is God in flesh.
The simple question is, WHO is Mary the mother of?

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