Mary as the mother of God?

[SantoSubito]

The view of Mary is apparently one that has evolved.



After reading the thread, this sounds like splitting hairs.

I would take anything from Boettner with a large grain of salt, he was an anti-Catholic par-excellence. Additionally, he has quoted, among other things, fake and forged documents attributed to Archbishops and Bishops in order to defame the Church; the most prominent example is the well know forgery that was attributed to Bishop Strossmyer that he quoted in one of his books

Also one and two both were a belief quite earlier than the date given, for example the date given for Mother of God (431) was when the ecumenical Council of Ephesus decreed that Mary was Theotokos (one who gives birth to God) in opposition to Nestorius, who, among other things insisted that Mary was simply Christotokos (one who gives birth to Christ). In order for it to have come up it had to be a belief well before that date. Number two is similarly wrong; we have discovered Marian frescoes in the catacombs where persecuted Christians in Rome worshiped in the middle 100s AD.

Both 4 and 5 were also earlier believed, and once again he uses the date that they were proclaimed dogma as the date that people started to believe them. But as is evidenced by the EO belief that is similar to the Assumption (the Dormition) the Assumption, in one form or another, was believed long before 1950. The situation is much the same for Mary Mother of the Church as it is for the Assumption.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, you deny that Jesus was both God and Man? And His humanity merely a shell?

How can someone be the mother of just a body?

My ex wife had 2 stillborn babies. She was the mother of just bodies. As the soul of the bodies never entered the dead flesh.

God has no mother. Has no beginning or end.

Man has a mother. His soul or the breath of life is given at the moment of birth. Mary gave birth to this "man" and Jesus entered this "flesh" at the moment of birth.

Mary gave birth to flesh. God entered this flesh and became man. But God has no mother.

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you saying that the Creator of time itself is limited to our temporal understandings?

No I am saying the creator of the woman can not have the woman as her mother. especially when the creator preceded the womans creation by an eternity.

 

[SantoSubito]

My ex wife had 2 stillborn babies. She was the mother of just bodies. As the soul of the bodies never entered the dead flesh.

God has no mother. Has no beginning or end.

Man has a mother. His soul or the breath of life is given at the moment of birth. Mary gave birth to this "man" and Jesus entered this "flesh" at the moment of birth.

Mary gave birth to flesh. God entered this flesh and became man. But God has no mother.

Why is this so hard to understand?

It's so hard to understand because man has a soul from the moment of conception. If you hold that man has no soul until he leaves his mothers womb at birth then there is no reason to be against abortion, since what they would be aborting has no soul and as such is nothing but a lifeless shell. I know of no other person other than you that holds this view.

Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of his conception.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's so hard to understand because man has a soul from the moment of conception. If you hold that man has no soul until he leaves his mothers womb at birth then there is no reason to be against abortion, since what they would be aborting has no soul and as such is nothing but a lifeless shell. I know of no other person other than you that holds this view.

Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of his conception.

Abortion is wrong because it is murder. Even if the soul does not enter the flesh until the baby is born. you are still saying God has no right to give that child life. that is murder. As ofr no one else believing it. You must not get around much. I know many people who believe it. Scripture states at the moment of birth. God breaths (nashema" life into the flesh. This breathing of life is the soul being entered into the body. Before this. there is no life. The mother sustains the fetus. If the mother dies, so does the fetus.

2. So you believe Mary gave birth to God? You believe jesus or the 2nd perosn of the trinity was not eternal? I can see it no other way, because you want me to believe mary was his mother. gave life to him, which means he never was before mary gave birth to him.

I believe Jesus was man. And this is what Mary gave birth to. But his spirit is eternal. And no one gave life to this. even if this life was entered into the flesh before birth and I am wrong when God breaths life into the flesh. This would not change.

 

[Ramon]

Ramon, i do not hate muslims, i also have Muslim friends, but it's just that if you're a Muslim and you come to a Christian site, You should respect their believes..I will never go to a Muslim site and tell them Jesus is the son of GOD since it's not part of their believes. So i think it's not proper for a Muslim to also do that in a Christian Site. Coming to tell them Jesus is not the son of GOD.

Tanx And God Bless

My friend. I am learning more and more that it is not doctrine that leads one to Jesus Christ. She didn't say that I don't think. I think you may have understood wrong. She was saying that if Mary was his mother then how could he be the son of God? I think that is what she was saying.

Anyhow, many people get kicked out of churches because they don't comply to doctrines, many of which are not according to truth anyway.

God takes each and every one of us from where we are and LEADS us into the Truth.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[SantoSubito]

Abortion is wrong because it is murder. Even if the soul does not enter the flesh until the baby is born. you are still saying God has no right to give that child life. that is murder. As ofr no one else believing it. You must not get around much. I know many people who believe it. Scripture states at the moment of birth. God breaths (nashema" life into the flesh. This breathing of life is the soul being entered into the body. Before this. there is no life. The mother sustains the fetus. If the mother dies, so does the fetus.

I can honestly say that in my entire circle of friends none of the Protestants know anyone who maintains that a soul does not enter the body until the child exits the womb. But I am curious what passage your using to draw this conclusion.

2. So you believe Mary gave birth to God? You believe jesus or the 2nd perosn of the trinity was not eternal? I can see it no other way, because you want me to believe mary was his mother. gave life to him, which means he never was before mary gave birth to him.

Jesus' spirit exists eternally, but the whole point of the incarnation is that he became man. Mary gave birth to God incarnate in the flesh. Jesus had, on earth, both a beginning and an end.

I believe Jesus was man. And this is what Mary gave birth to. But his spirit is eternal. And no one gave life to this. even if this life was entered into the flesh before birth and I am wrong when God breaths life into the flesh. This would not change.

I wonder how you explain twins interacting, playing, and even communicating in a way in the womb? Without a soul our bodies are lifeless, they can not move or do anything without a soul.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

There are so many Pro-life verses that it is a shame that people get abortions.
Psalms 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb...
Psalms 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psalms 71:6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.
Psalms 127:3 Lo, children are a heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus' spirit exists eternally, but the whole point of the incarnation is that he became man. Mary gave birth to God incarnate in the flesh. Jesus had, on earth, both a beginning and an end.

Like I said, the other does not matter. Even if the soul was in before birth that soul or spirit was still eternal and had no mother. And I do not wish to discuss it, as it has no bearin gon this conversation

as for this question, Jesus (man) had begining. Jesus (God ) did not have a begining, he always was. He, as scripture says, Emptied his spirit, and took on the form of a man. (became man) Mary did not give birth, or create this spirit form of Jesus. it always was.

Again, why can't you see this?

 

[Scotth1960]

I would take anything from Boettner with a large grain of salt, he was an anti-Catholic par-excellence. Additionally, he has quoted, among other things, fake and forged documents attributed to Archbishops and Bishops in order to defame the Church; the most prominent example is the well know forgery that was attributed to Bishop Strossmyer that he quoted in one of his books

Dear SantoSubito, It is ironic you talk about "fake and forged documents" in trying to make light of what Boettner says against Catholicism. The papal claims are based upon fake and forged documents, the "Donation of Constantine", and the "Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals". The whole papist claim for the papacy is based upon these false documents. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[systemdown101]

Look. I'm not a learned man when it comes to Christian Doctrine, or the philosophies of one particular dogma over another. Good grief, I don't even know what a decretal is, Isidorian sounds like some character from Lord of the Rings, and the Donation of Constantine makes me think of the guy walking into a church and putting a couple gold coins in the collection plate!

The whole debate strikes me as similar to this:

Then Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

'The LORD said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '
​

"Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord'; how is He then his Son?" And the common people heard him gladly.

Well, do we call David the Father of God? Not that I've heard of. The only way I can explain the whole Mary issue would be using what I've read about David in this instance, which would be that David calls Him Lord in his divinity, yet Jesus is also David's Son in His humanity. And the same applies to Mary. Or at least that makes sense to me.

I don't really have a problem with Catholics insisting that Mary was assumed into Heaven or suchlike. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it doesn't really affect me either as I have more than enough problems with my own walk to start getting on someone elses case over theirs. The one thing I will say is that when I hear the title "Queen of Heaven" ascribed to Mary ... well, something seems wrong with that. I can't tell you exactly why though.

 

[Scotth1960]

My ex wife had 2 stillborn babies. She was the mother of just bodies. As the soul of the bodies never entered the dead flesh.

God has no mother. Has no beginning or end.

Man has a mother. His soul or the breath of life is given at the moment of birth. Mary gave birth to this "man" and Jesus entered this "flesh" at the moment of birth.

Mary gave birth to flesh. God entered this flesh and became man. But God has no mother.

Why is this so hard to understand?

God heals the brokenhearted. In this life, we have pain. We suffer. We are blessed when we suffer with Christ. It is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong. We certainly can do nothing to deserve God's love. But we can be made worthy by Jesus Christ in His blood and His resurrection.
As for Mary, if Mary just gave birth to flesh, then Jesus Christ is two persons. His flesh is then separated away from His divinity, if the flesh that was born to Mary is not God.
God was incarnate through Mary, and thus Mary is the Mother of God the Son. She isn't author of His Divinity, but His Divinity is forever united now to His humanity. So she must be the Mother of God the Son, if Jesus Christ is God. Otherwise, you have Nestorianism, and Christ is two separate persons, one human, the other God. Take. Care.
God bless you.
Mary is the Mother of God the Son in His humanity. Why is this so hard to understand?
If she isn't the Mother of God, then Christ isn't God.

 

[Scotth1960]

Look. I'm not a learned man when it comes to Christian Doctrine, or the philosophies of one particular dogma over another. Good grief, I don't even know what a decretal is, Isidorian sounds like some character from Lord of the Rings, and the Donation of Constantine makes me think of the guy walking into a church and putting a couple gold coins in the collection plate!

The whole debate strikes me as similar to this:

Dear Systemdown, Why not try reading instead of speculating? You can learn what is meant by Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals and Donation of Constantine.
Go on GOOGLE under Wikipedia and type in Donation of Constantine and Pseudo-Isidore. God bless you.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look. I'm not a learned man when it comes to Christian Doctrine, or the philosophies of one particular dogma over another. Good grief, I don't even know what a decretal is, Isidorian sounds like some character from Lord of the Rings, and the Donation of Constantine makes me think of the guy walking into a church and putting a couple gold coins in the collection plate!

The whole debate strikes me as similar to this:

Then Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

'The LORD said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '
​

"Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord'; how is He then his Son?" And the common people heard him gladly.

Well, do we call David the Father of God? Not that I've heard of. The only way I can explain the whole Mary issue would be using what I've read about David in this instance, which would be that David calls Him Lord in his divinity, yet Jesus is also David's Son in His humanity. And the same applies to Mary. Or at least that makes sense to me.

I don't really have a problem with Catholics insisting that Mary was assumed into Heaven or suchlike. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it doesn't really affect me either as I have more than enough problems with my own walk to start getting on someone elses case over theirs. The one thing I will say is that when I hear the title "Queen of Heaven" ascribed to Mary ... well, something seems wrong with that. I can't tell you exactly why though.

You make a good Point. Especially since Mary calls Jesus her Lord also. (and her savior I might add)

As for "queen of heaven" It should seem wrong. The only time this title is mentioned in scripture it is in reference to a pagan goddess. of whom worship was forbidden

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God heals the brokenhearted. In this life, we have pain. We suffer. We are blessed when we suffer with Christ. It is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong. We certainly can do nothing to deserve God's love. But we can be made worthy by Jesus Christ in His blood and His resurrection.
As for Mary, if Mary just gave birth to flesh, then Jesus Christ is two persons. His flesh is then separated away from His divinity, if the flesh that was born to Mary is not God.
God was incarnate through Mary, and thus Mary is the Mother of God the Son. She isn't author of His Divinity, but His Divinity is forever united now to His humanity. So she must be the Mother of God the Son, if Jesus Christ is God. Otherwise, you have Nestorianism, and Christ is two separate persons, one human, the other God. Take. Care.
God bless you.
Mary is the Mother of God the Son in His humanity. Why is this so hard to understand?
If she isn't the Mother of God, then Christ isn't God.

Why is it so hard to understand?

1. If Mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the trinity. She is married to the father. This is NOT SO.
2. if mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the tritnity. The 2nd person did not exist until Mary gave birth to him. (which is not true)
3. if Mary is the mother of God. Then God has a beginning. (which is not true)
4. All men have a body and soul. The body was formed in the mothers womb. She gave the body its flesh. God gave the man the (spirit) soul. The mother created the flesh. the God created the soul. Both have a beginning
5. Mary created the flesh. The 2nd person of the trinity entered that flesh as the spirit or soul of God. The flesh had a begining through Mary. The soul had no beginning, It always was.

Mary was the mother of the flesh (man) God had no beginning, thus had no mother.

keep trying to explain it away Scott. You can't You might convince yourself. But until you can redeem these basic facts that God had no beginning, You will never convince me that Mary is the mother of God.

 

[Scotth1960]

Why is it so hard to understand?

1. If Mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the trinity. She is married to the father. This is NOT SO.
2. if mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the tritnity. The 2nd person did not exist until Mary gave birth to him. (which is not true)
3. if Mary is the mother of God. Then God has a beginning. (which is not true)
4. All men have a body and soul. The body was formed in the mothers womb. She gave the body its flesh. God gave the man the (spirit) soul. The mother created the flesh. the God created the soul. Both have a beginning
5. Mary created the flesh. The 2nd person of the trinity entered that flesh as the spirit or soul of God. The flesh had a begining through Mary. The soul had no beginning, It always was.

Mary was the mother of the flesh (man) God had no beginning, thus had no mother.

keep trying to explain it away Scott. You can't You might convince yourself. But until you can redeem these basic facts that God had no beginning, You will never convince me that Mary is the mother of God.

Mary is the mother of the humanity of God the Son. Is God the Son's humanity detached (separate) from His Divinity? If Mary is not the mother of God the Son, then Christ is 2 persons. You are separating away His Divinity from His humanity. By denying she is the Theotokos, the God-bearer, the Mother of God, you are saying that when Christ became a man, as God manifest in the flesh, His Divinity is separate off on the side, so that Mary did not have God in her womb. She only had the flesh of Christ, His body, and this was not God incarnate, but just a separate, human body. Your denial of the title Mother of God means that what was born of Mary was just a human man, and not God manifest in the flesh. You must therefore separate the One LORD Jesus Christ into two separate persons: one human, the other Divine. This is the INEVITABLE consequence of denying that Mary is the Mother of God the Son. She is Mother on of His flesh, and His Divinity is not incarnate in His flesh. He is not the God-man; He is just a man. He was not incarnate as God of the virgin Mary. What was born of Mary was true man, but not true God, so Mary is not the Mother of God, she is just the mother of a man, Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ is not God incarnate; He is just a male body. We can't even say He is God if Mary is not the Mother of God.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Of course, Mary is not the Mother of Christ's Divinity; she is the Mother of God the Son in His human nature, but His human nature is God incarnate, and He did not cease being God when He was. Mary is the birth giver of God the Son: God manifest in the flesh.

 

[Scotth1960]

Why is it so hard to understand?

1. If Mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the trinity. She is married to the father. This is NOT SO.
2. if mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the tritnity. The 2nd person did not exist until Mary gave birth to him. (which is not true)
3. if Mary is the mother of God. Then God has a beginning. (which is not true)
4. All men have a body and soul. The body was formed in the mothers womb. She gave the body its flesh. God gave the man the (spirit) soul. The mother created the flesh. the God created the soul. Both have a beginning
5. Mary created the flesh. The 2nd person of the trinity entered that flesh as the spirit or soul of God. The flesh had a begining through Mary. The soul had no beginning, It always was.

Mary was the mother of the flesh (man) God had no beginning, thus had no mother.

keep trying to explain it away Scott.

Your sentiments are totally illogical! What you can't admit is that you are dividing Jesus Christ into two persons: one human, the other Divine. 2. is especially illogical. The 2nd person of the Trinity has always existed. But was not always incarnate. But from the time of His incarnation, Christ the Son is forever the God-man, God incarnate. Thus, God the Son was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He is begotten of the Father before all ages, but the Father, through the power of the Holy Spirit, caused the Son to become incarnate. The Father begat the Son in the womb of the Virgin Mary. 3. is also illogical and does not follow. In His incarnation, God became incarnate at a moment in time, but He was always God, and had no beginning outside of time. But as the God-man, He had a beginning in time in His human nature: His human nature, not His divinity, began in time.
Keep trying to say that what was born of Mary is not God the Son, and therefore Mary is not the Mother of God the Son in His humanity.
If Mary is not the Mother of God, Christ is not God, and Christ is 2 persons: one human, the other Divine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is it so hard to understand?

1. If Mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the trinity. She is married to the father. This is NOT SO.
2. if mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the tritnity. The 2nd person did not exist until Mary gave birth to him. (which is not true)
3. if Mary is the mother of God. Then God has a beginning. (which is not true)
4. All men have a body and soul. The body was formed in the mothers womb. She gave the body its flesh. God gave the man the (spirit) soul. The mother created the flesh. the God created the soul. Both have a beginning
5. Mary created the flesh. The 2nd person of the trinity entered that flesh as the spirit or soul of God. The flesh had a begining through Mary. The soul had no beginning, It always was.

Mary was the mother of the flesh (man) God had no beginning, thus had no mother.

keep trying to explain it away Scott.

Your sentiments are totally illogical! What you can't admit is that you are dividing Jesus Christ into two persons: one human, the other Divine. 2. is especially illogical. The 2nd person of the Trinity has always existed. But was not always incarnate. But from the time of His incarnation, Christ the Son is forever the God-man, God incarnate. Thus, God the Son was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. He is begotten of the Father before all ages, but the Father, through the power of the Holy Spirit, caused the Son to become incarnate. The Father begat the Son in the womb of the Virgin Mary. 3. is also illogical and does not follow. In His incarnation, God became incarnate at a moment in time, but He was always God, and had no beginning outside of time. But as the God-man, He had a beginning in time in His human nature: His human nature, not His divinity, began in time.
Keep trying to say that what was born of Mary is not God the Son, and therefore Mary is not the Mother of God the Son in His humanity.
If Mary is not the Mother of God, Christ is not God, and Christ is 2 persons: one human, the other Divine.

Sorry Scott. I can not buy your logic. for one, Christ was called the son before he was born of Mary.

Your flesh will die. When you are resurrected. The flesh bore you by your mother will return to the ground. All that will remain is your soul, which was given to you by God. not your mother. You will be resurrected (if you are saved) with a new body. and will not longer have a mother.

When Christ died. the thing his mother gave him died. When he was resurrected. he was given a new body. Not bore by Mary, but created by the father, the same body we will have.

 

[Scotth1960]

Sorry Scott. I can not buy your logic. for one, Christ was called the son before he was born of Mary.

Your flesh will die. When you are resurrected. The flesh bore you by your mother will return to the ground. All that will remain is your soul, which was given to you by God. not your mother. You will be resurrected (if you are saved) with a new body. and will not longer have a mother.

When Christ died. the thing his mother gave him died. When he was resurrected. he was given a new body. Not bore by Mary, but created by the father, the same body we will have.

Is Christ God incarnate? If Mary is not the Mother of God incarnate, are you saying that Christ is not God? How can you separate away His divinity from His humanity, and say Mary did not give birth to God the Son? That would mean God never became a man in Mary, if Mary isn't the Mother of God. God has a human nature in Christ, and therefore Mary can be the Mother of God in His incarnate nature. Your approach would separate off to the side His Divinity, and disunite His Divinity from His humanity. So, 2 persons. I don't know why you can't understand your denial of the name "Mother of God" makes Christ 2 persons, and that is Nestorianism!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is Christ God incarnate? If Mary is not the Mother of God incarnate, are you saying that Christ is not God? How can you separate away His divinity from His humanity, and say Mary did not give birth to God the Son? That would mean God never became a man in Mary, if Mary isn't the Mother of God. God has a human nature in Christ, and therefore Mary can be the Mother of God in His incarnate nature. Your approach would separate off to the side His Divinity, and disunite His Divinity from His humanity. So, 2 persons. I don't know why you can't understand your denial of the name "Mother of God" makes Christ 2 persons, and that is Nestorianism!

Scott!! This is getting old.

The body Christ has today WAS NOT BORE BY MARY!!

You can quote this nostorium all you want. It will not support your point. Jesus was Body soul and spirit. His body was made and bore by mary. It died, it no longer exists today. His soul and spirit never had a beginning. And it will never have an end. It was not bore by anyone. it always was.

It does not make Jesus two persons. it is reality. You were born body and soul. Your spirit was dead until made alive but Christ, (if it was) your body (created by your mother) Will die. Your soul was bore by God himself. He created it and gave it to your body. As was your spirit. It to will live forever. Where is up to you.

A recommendation for you is to stop thinking one way, stop thinking about what you have been taught. and look at the facts. Until you do this you will never understand what I believe. This two person thing you keep bringing up is a false thing you have been taught we believe./ IT IS NOT TRUE!