Wailing at the Western Wall of the Roman Fort

[Eli1]

To my understanding their Tamud says that any Synagogue is a minor holy temple. While the Temple Mount was the dwelling place God chose for himself during the time of King David.
So as I see it, the Temple itself being destroyed in 70A.D doesn't mean it is gone from the hearts of the Jews who reconnect to that sacred space.

And due to access restrictions to the Temple Mount that western wall is the next best thing.

I would love to tour there for the experience. I imagine the energy of such devotion is palpable even to non-Jews.

I agree with you and for being non-judgmental to Catholics, if i understood you correctly.
The temple is indeed a holy space/area where a lot of miracles happen.

For example, when there was a drought in Israel for 10 years, the prime minister of the agriculture asked the nation to pray.
So all the Jews gathered there at the wall, prayed for a week and it rained!

Similarly many miracles have happened at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher there where a lot of people have been healed by touching the stone slab.

 

[Eli1]

Because the wall of a Roman fortress- if that is indeed what it is in reality- would be "most unclean" rather than most-holy.

Ah, i see. Good point.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Why do you think it's ironic, if you don't mind explaining a bit more?

People are attributing godly qualities to a physical thing that has the exact opposite qualities that they hate and despise. That's irony

 

[Eli1]

Maybe one of the mysteries of God is that it's not the location, or our confusion but the intention from the heart.
If you love God with all your heart and you pray ... miracles happen.

 

[Cranberry]

I agree with you and for being non-judgmental to Catholics, if i understood you correctly.
The temple is indeed a holy space/area where a lot of miracles happen.

For example, when there was a drought in Israel for 10 years, the prime minister of the agriculture asked the nation to pray.
So all the Jews gathered there at the wall, prayed for a week and it rained!

Similarly many miracles have happened at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher there where a lot of people have been healed by touching the stone slab.

Your recollection of the draught in Israel brought me
to remember their former Prime Minister Golda Meir saying the Jews are the only people God would make travel the desert for 40 years and then settle them on the only patch of sand that doesn't have oil under it.

A slight paraphrase.

In my view they sit on something far more valuable than oil. An Aquafer.

 

[maxwel]

Follow up question for anyone who wants to pick it up:

Would you have any problems with the Catholics praying at an icon or a statue?

I think the disagreement protestants have always had with Catholics, on this issue, is the matter of "AT" versus "TO."

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[Eli1]

I think the disagreement protestants have always had with Catholics, on this issue, is the matter of "AT" versus "TO."

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I'm glad you joined Maxwell.
Can you explain to me how a Protestant can tell the difference from a "AT" vs "TO" in regards to when someone is facing an object with their eyes open?

 

[maxwel]

I'm glad you joined Maxwell.
Can you explain to me how a Protestant can tell the difference from a "AT" vs "TO" in regards to when someone is facing an object with their eyes open?

Perhaps. But first, please explain to me how Catholics can fold their hands, bow their heads, then reverently talk to Mary up in heaven, and ask her to intercede for them... then claim that's just a "conversation", not a "prayer."

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[Cranberry]

2020
The Western Wall and the Jews: More than a Thousand Years of Prayer

Nadav Shragai, a researcher at the Jerusalem Center, published this collection of forgotten and lesser-known facts about the Western Wall, which Muslims are trying to deny.

• After the destruction of the Temple, Jews prayed on the Temple Mount, on the Mount of Olives, at the eastern and southern walls, and finally – when Jerusalem was reopened – Jews returned to the Western Wall, which is closest in proximity to the Holy of Holies.
• The current place of worship at the Western Wall was established after an earthquake in 1546, which collapsed a row of buildings leaning against the Western Wall and cleared a short prayer alley for Jews, used with the approval of the Ottoman authorities.
• The central synagogue of the Jews in Jerusalem, “The Cave,” was located inside the Western Wall tunnels for many years, until the city fell to the Crusaders in 1099.
• The Jewish scholar, Yitzhak Yehezkiel Yehuda, collected dozens of testimonies of Jewish prayers throughout many points in time, beginning in 950 CE. They were submitted to the 1930 British Western Wall Commission, testifying to the Jewish connection to the place.
• A valuable new study prepared by Dr. Aryeh Kimelman reveals that in parallel with the prayers at the Western Wall “alley,” which later expanded to become the Western Wall Plaza, Jews prayed at various points along the entire length of the wall, for example, near the Cotton Merchants’ Gate, Council Gate, and Iron Gate.
• Muslims today deny the Jewish connection to the Temple Mount, as well as reject any Jewish connection to the Western Wall. They claim that the entire area of the Temple Mount is “part of al-Aqsa.”
• After 1967, the Muslims expanded the definition of “al-Aqsa” beyond just the southern mosque on the Mount and applied it to the entire compound and its walls.
• During the 19 years of occupying east Jerusalem, Jordan violated a commitment to allow Jews to pray at the Western Wall.

 

[Eli1]

Perhaps. But first, please explain to me how Catholics can fold their hands, bow their heads, then reverently talk to Mary up in heaven, and ask her to intercede for them... then claim that's just a "conversation", not a "prayer."

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Good question.
Can you also explain to me how the Jews pray at the wall, while they move their hips and body and pray loudly to God?
So we can compare apples to apples.

 

[maxwel]

Good question.
Can you also explain to me how the Jews pray at the wall, while they move their hips and body and pray loudly to God?
So we can compare apples to apples.

I don't recall embarking on a defense of Jewish practices.
I don't remember doing that.
Maybe I did, then I had a total mental lapse, and forget I did it... is that what happened?
Was I defending Jewish practices, and then completely forgot I did it?
No.
I didn't begin by defending their practices, so I have no logical requirement to defend them now... I was talking about Catholics praying to Mary.

Eli, I'm really tired today, and I already know all the catholic arguments for this, and where it all goes.
Let's skip this, and pick it up another time.
You have a great night bro.

.

 

[Eli1]

I don't recall embarking on a defense of Jewish practices.
I don't remember doing that.
Maybe I did, then I had a total mental lapse, and forget I did it... is that what happened?
Was I defending Jewish practices, and then completely forgot I did it?
No.
I didn't begin by defending their practices, so I have no logical requirement to defend them now... I was talking about Catholics praying to Mary.

Eli, I'm really tired today, and I already know all the catholic arguments for this, and where it all goes.
Let's skip this, and pick it up another time.
You have a great night bro.

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Well, it's okay.
Maybe like i said in post #24 is that the heart is what matters? Not our body movements and dance in relation to the objects in this creation?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This is something that really impresses me. Micah prophesied that Mt Zion where the temple was would be plowed as a field. Below is a screenshot from the video that shows the area of Zion and the city of David as terraced fields (south of the Temple Mount), Jesus knew this prophecy and may have had this in mind when he said no stone of the temple would be left upon another.

Therefore for your sake Zion shall be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become a ruin, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest. Micah 3:12​

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[maxwel]

Well, it's okay.
Maybe like i said in post #24 is that the heart is what matters? Not our body movements and dance in relation to the objects in this creation?

Are you going to start dancing in the forum?
Is that what the New Year has in store for us?
And when you do... can you warn me first?

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[Eli1]

Are you going to start dancing in the forum?
Is that what the New Year has in store for us?
And when you do... can you warn me first?

.
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I can warn you brother but dancing is another outward expression which expresses joy from the heart.
I mean, i would love to be at a wedding in Cana with Jesus. Wouldn't you?
But the point of this whole thing is to not be so judgmental about how people practice their love for God, especially when miracles are involved.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I just learned that Wailing Wall, which I've always known it as, was a derogatory term used by the British when they controlled the area. Had no idea

 

[Gideon300]

This graphic below is from one of the articles linked to above. It depicts the Roman fort on what is now considered the Temple Mount. The temple is about 600 feet south of it in the City of David.

The valley to the left of the fort is the Kidron Valley. The mountain across from the fort is now considered to be the Mount of Olives, but the mountain further south across from the temple is what was considered the Mount of Olives in bible times.

The Hinnom Valley intersects the Kidron Valley south of the city near where the well of En Rogel and the kings' gardens used to be. The hill that forms the south side of the Hinnom Valley is the Hill of Evil Counsel where Jesus was condemned by the pharisees. Caiaphas supposedly had his residence there.

The Kidron Valley continues south where it intersects Azal Valley (Nahal Azal in Hebrew) at the southernmost point of the Mount of Olives. This is the Azal of Zechariah 14:5. The mountain in the background that forms the southern side of Nahal Azal is called Mount Azal in Jerusalem today (Jabel Mukaber in Arabic)).

The southeastern point of the temple was supposedly 400-500 feet high. This place is probably what is referred to in one of the temptations of Jesus

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Matthew 4:5-6​

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I agree with the idea that the current supposed temple site is wrong. Some will be excited. There is no need to blow up Muslim mosques in order to build a third temple. Again, many believe that the third temple will be the work of the Antichrist. It could be that a major obstacle no longer exists. We will find out soon enough.