what is the Abyss?

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L

Laodicea

Guest
#21
#21
AnandaHya said:
I do not really understand this passage.

why did the demons ask not to be cast into the abyss but into the swine, yet the swine still run into the sea to their death?

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We need to read the other passages about this as well.
Matthew 8:29
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mark 5:10
(10) And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Luke 8:31
(31) And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

We need to put the 3 together and come to 1 answer




 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#22
#22
Laodicea said:
We need to read the other passages about this as well.
Matthew 8:29
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mark 5:10
(10) And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Luke 8:31
(31) And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

We need to put the 3 together and come to 1 answer
Click to expand...
ok so where did they go after the death of the swine? did Jesus grant their request NOT to be cast out of the country, into the deep or into the abyss? why were the people in that country afraid and asked Jesus to leave them?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#23
#23
AnandaHya said:
ok so where did they go after the death of the swine? did Jesus grant their request NOT to be cast out of the country, into the deep or into the abyss? why were the people in that country afraid and asked Jesus to leave them?
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Jesus did that to get the attention of the people and:-
Luke 8:38-40
(38) Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying,
(39) Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.
(40) And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.

That happened because of the witness of the man
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#24
#24
that makes more sense thanks :)
 
W

Warrior777

Guest
#25
#25
Laodicea said:
Where do you get your info from? Not the Bible. Angels cannot procreate.
John 1:12
(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Luke 3:38
(38) Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

If you read Genesis 4 & 5 you read 2 lines, the line of Cain, the line of Seth. the line of Cain were the daughters of men and Seth were the sons of God. Also man has decreased, look at the ages that they live before the flood they all lived over 900 years so they would have all been giants but, after the flood not only did the lifespan decrease but also the size of people as well. God created man perfect and able to eat from the tree of life before sin and since man was created a little lower then they would have been created a little lower in size as well to angels which means Adam and Eve would have been giants.



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Before you criticize someone please be sure you know what you are saying. Fist of all you didn't really read carefully what I was saying, judging from your choice of scripture for rebuttal:
I said the term "sons of God" in the OT (Old Testament!) refers to angels or "heavenly beings" as some Bible translation, translate it - yes THE BIBLE!

Here are the other 3:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

If you need more convincing read these in context...

Also where do you get the distinction from you make between sons of God being Seth's line and daughters of men being Cain's line? Where do you get the idea that all of these were giants? Even Adam and Eve? Just because they lived longer? Now where is that in the Bible please? It also talks about giants only after the specific mention of sons of God and daughters of men coming together, not before...
Actually we see later on long after the flood that not all were giants but there still were giants again in the land, prime example Goliath!

here is one in Numbers 13:33: (and this is the same word for giants in the original text)
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Peter tells us that these angels left their "Proper Domain" and sinned and were locked up for that.
In Genesis 6
- it says sons of God and women of men, it makes a distinction right there, when in the sentence and chapters before that it is already talking about the human race multiplying, so why using and highlighting this expression right there? Further right after the mentioning of these creatures procreating with women, it says that God limited their time on earth (well He must not have been pleased about it, if those were just normal humans what would be the point?) . Then it says that Noah found favor in God's eyes, first of all because he was PERFECT in his generations, meaning not polluted with procreation from these creatures in his family line...
But this is widely known already, I just summed it up to make a point to a prior post.

Since this is not really the point of this thread you should make one for it, if you want to discuss that further!
 
B

Brandon777

Guest
#26
#26
AnandaHya said:
How can death seize them yet they still go down alive into hell?
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This death is not the same death as we think of up here when someone is lying there cold. It's an eternal hopeless chasm of terror drenched in agony and anguish. Death there is defined by the experience one has in hell.
 
cronjecj

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
#27
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#27
Brandon777 said:
This death is not the same death as we think of up here when someone is lying there cold. It's an eternal hopeless chasm of terror drenched in agony and anguish. Death there is defined by the experience one has in hell.
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Yes because according to scripture there's no such thing as "cease to exist death" only passing on to the next or been destroyed in the abyss (hell).

Spirit beings is immortal so they see death as continual agony and anguish.

Yes physical death is only death of the body but the second death is the lake.

Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#28
#28
cronjecj said:
Yes because according to scripture there's no such thing as "cease to exist death" only passing on to the next or been destroyed in the abyss (hell).

Spirit beings is immortal so they see death as continual agony and anguish.

Yes physical death is only death of the body but the second death is the lake.

Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Click to expand...
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Revelation 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:14
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire so the lake of fire is not hell also it says they will be devoured, it does not say they will be suffering in the flames for eternity. Read the texts this happens on the earth just before God recreates the earth, He cannot recreate the earth while people are burning.
Revelation 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


 
cronjecj

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
#29
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
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0
#29
Laodicea said:
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Revelation 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:14
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire so the lake of fire is not hell also it says they will be devoured, it does not say they will be suffering in the flames for eternity. Read the texts this happens on the earth just before God recreates the earth, He cannot recreate the earth while people are burning.
Revelation 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Click to expand...

So who stays dead after physical dead? Or do they pass on to somewhere to either paradise or hell.

Luke 16:22-24
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Hell itself is not the second death that's why it's said that 'death and hell' were cast into the Lake.

So the Lake of fire is the second death.
 
cronjecj

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
#30
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#30
Brandon777 said:
This death is not the same death as we think of up here when someone is lying there cold. It's an eternal hopeless chasm of terror drenched in agony and anguish. Death there is defined by the experience one has in hell.
Click to expand...

Actually hell is not the second death the lake of fire is.

Peace.
 
B

Brandon777

Guest
#31
#31
Laodicea said:
Hell is cast into the lake of fire so the lake of fire is not hell also it says they will be devoured, it does not say they will be suffering in the flames for eternity. Read the texts this happens on the earth just before God recreates the earth, He cannot recreate the earth while people are burning.
Click to expand...


It actually doesn't say that the lake of fire devours people, or that the lake of fire is inside the earth. The people who are devoured are the people born from the righteous people of the millennial reign who deny God.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#32
#32
Brandon777 said:
It actually doesn't say that the lake of fire devours people, or that the lake of fire is inside the earth. The people who are devoured are the people born from the righteous people of the millennial reign who deny God.
Click to expand...
Revelation 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#33
#33
Interesting dialogue...seems all bases are covered. :)
 
jonathanbchristian

jonathanbchristian

Banned
#35
Feb 16, 2011
2,957
24
0
#35
Warrior777 said:
Before you criticize someone please be sure you know what you are saying. Fist of all you didn't really read carefully what I was saying, judging from your choice of scripture for rebuttal:
I said the term "sons of God" in the OT (Old Testament!) refers to angels or "heavenly beings" as some Bible translation, translate it - yes THE BIBLE!

Here are the other 3:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

If you need more convincing read these in context...

Also where do you get the distinction from you make between sons of God being Seth's line and daughters of men being Cain's line? Where do you get the idea that all of these were giants? Even Adam and Eve? Just because they lived longer? Now where is that in the Bible please? It also talks about giants only after the specific mention of sons of God and daughters of men coming together, not before...
Actually we see later on long after the flood that not all were giants but there still were giants again in the land, prime example Goliath!

here is one in Numbers 13:33: (and this is the same word for giants in the original text)
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Peter tells us that these angels left their "Proper Domain" and sinned and were locked up for that.
In Genesis 6
- it says sons of God and women of men, it makes a distinction right there, when in the sentence and chapters before that it is already talking about the human race multiplying, so why using and highlighting this expression right there? Further right after the mentioning of these creatures procreating with women, it says that God limited their time on earth (well He must not have been pleased about it, if those were just normal humans what would be the point?) . Then it says that Noah found favor in God's eyes, first of all because he was PERFECT in his generations, meaning not polluted with procreation from these creatures in his family line...
But this is widely known already, I just summed it up to make a point to a prior post.

Since this is not really the point of this thread you should make one for it, if you want to discuss that further!
Click to expand...
In Job it doesn't say that the "sons of God" are angels. It also did not say in Genesis that they were angels. But the term "sons of God" could apply to both angles and men. Men are called the "sons of God" more often in the Bible than angels. I do not know of any verse that directly calls angels the "sons of God". I do believe that it is possible that they are angels in Job however I believe it is blaspheme to say the "sons of God" are angels in Genesis. It is blaspheme to believe that angels have the same nature as men in desiring women. The angels are a different creation. We are told not to intrude into things about the angels.

This is the perfect verse for the matter. Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
 
W

Warrior777

Guest
#36
#36
jonathanbchristian said:
In Job it doesn't say that the "sons of God" are angels. It also did not say in Genesis that they were angels. But the term "sons of God" could apply to both angles and men. Men are called the "sons of God" more often in the Bible than angels. I do not know of any verse that directly calls angels the "sons of God". I do believe that it is possible that they are angels in Job however I believe it is blaspheme to say the "sons of God" are angels in Genesis. It is blaspheme to believe that angels have the same nature as men in desiring women. The angels are a different creation. We are told not to intrude into things about the angels.

This is the perfect verse for the matter. Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Click to expand...
Nobody is worshiping angels over here, but I have to refer you to this following thread, since this is off topic here and I will not answer this in here any further:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/32733-who-sons-god.html

Thank you!
 
R

rainacorn

Guest
#37
#37
Would it be fair to say Jesus showed mercy on the demons by granting their request?

Why would He do that?
 
cronjecj

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
#38
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#38
rainacorn said:
Would it be fair to say Jesus showed mercy on the demons by granting their request?

Why would He do that?
Click to expand...
No it is not because Jesus showed mercy on the demons it is because it was before their appointed time for judgement. Their time will come and they know it.
 
W

Warrior777

Guest
#39
#39
rainacorn said:
Would it be fair to say Jesus showed mercy on the demons by granting their request?

Why would He do that?
Click to expand...
I personally believe there were different things in play here:
I don't necessarily think that Jesus would show mercy to demons (many reasons why), but rather mercy on the possessed man. Demons have a way sometimes to torment people on their way out and a whole legion coming out all at once could have been quite a torture for the man. Also it was an easier way of getting them to go "peacefully" without putting up a big fight. So Jesus granted their request/ actually "prayer". Now the other part are the swine itself. By Law God's people were forbidden to raise pigs, sell pigs let alone eat them. They are an unclean animal. But these did do that what they were not supposed to. So by having the demons go into the pigs and drowning them, Jesus actually totally destroyed their business, that they should not have been involved in to begin with. That might also be part of their grievance (mixed with fear) directed at him, so they told Jesus to leave...
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#40
#40
cronjecj said:
No it is not because Jesus showed mercy on the demons it is because it was before their appointed time for judgement. Their time will come and they know it.
Click to expand...
Jesus allowed it to get the attention of the people in the town. Look at what happened after the pigs were drowned
Luke 8:34-37
(34) When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country.
(35) Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
(36) They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.
(37) Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.

As we see the this got the attention of everybody in the town and look at what happened later
Luke 8:38-40
(38) Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying,
(39) Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.
(40) And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.

 
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