a Question for the Premillennialists

eternally-gratefull · Dec 6, 2011

This gets old. You know what I believe. why keep asking it.

2 a bema seat judgment on believers (work is tried by fire and whatever is left is reward), and a great white throne on unbelievers. (judged for works. reward is eternal death)

what does these have to do with God pouring his wrath on earth during the opening of the seals, and the other wraths spoken of in revelation?

when does this tribulation Christ speaks of happen? Or has it already happened?

remember. No tribulation will be greater than this (the world has ever seen, nor will after) and mankind has the ability to destroy itself from the face of the earth (no flesh would be saved)

so when did this happen?

Necto · Dec 6, 2011

What does the expression "Jesus fulfilled the sevens" It's just nonsense! Christ has not fulfilled sevens. Weeks are for the account of time. Weeks are for the people and not for Christ! This infection spreads from the zone.

cronjecj · Dec 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

and the false prophet along with the beast thrown in the lake before the thousand years as you have said is not a judgment?

there is only one judgment and that's the harvest Jesus was speaking in the parable about at His 2nd coming. Matthew 30:24-30 (KJV)

cronjecj · Dec 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

it (great tribulation\release of Satan) to gather from gog and magog) will happen prior Jesus 2nd coming.

cronjecj · Dec 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

the works of believers tried by fire is not a judgement.

cronjecj · Dec 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull;597816[B said:

the beast is a symbol for Satan.

so how can Satan the beast be thrown in hell and then a thousand years later he is released?

AnandaHya · Dec 6, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

I agree with you here EG, the only thing is I believe Jesus is ruling NOW in HEAVEN with an iron Rod. His grace is allowing people to continue because He is wants to give them a chance to hear the gospel (which His saints are teaching people and that is how they are Priest and Kings with Him) and repent and be saved. the 1000 years is His grace period where He binds Satan from interfering with the work of His people so they might teach and bring people to repentence without demonic influence. however those people will still have the sinful nature of their flesh and will still do evil. God will chastens them and show them the Truth but some will still reject Jesus and His discipline. Satan will gather these people to him and attack Jesus and His saints. However the city is not of this world but in Heaven. it is the Heavenly Jeruselam that will come down after the establishment of New Earth and New Heaven. It is in the spiritual realm.

Christ's return to Earth. I think we have a different idea of what that means. You seem to think it happens in Chapter 19? I don't think it happens until Chapter 21.

I can see your point if Jesus returned to an Earthly Kingdom in Chapter 19 your points would make sense, but I don't think He returns until chpt 21

because of these verses:
2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n]

you see it is not until this point that it says Jesus tabernacles with men and comes down out of Heaven to Earth.

chapter 19
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses.

it says the Armies are following JESUS and are in HEAVEN. God's throne is in HEAVEN not Earth. chapter 19 is about a heavenly battle not an earthly one.

the beast is a spiritual creature not an earthly one.

AnandaHya · Dec 6, 2011

cronjecj said:

ummm cronjecj.... ummm perhaps read Revelation 13 again?

there is more than one beast.....

AnandaHya · Dec 6, 2011

Necto said:

don't be delusional, people believe that Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9 long before Zone was even born.

you don't even make sense Daniel 9 is about the Messiah making a remission of sins is that talking about the people or Jesus Christ?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 6, 2011

cronjecj said:

Dude. I am going to give you some help. I used to be like you and say stuff without actually studying what I was saying.

If you look at rev 20

1. Satan is cast to the lake of fire. where the beast and false prophet are.
2. Then comes the great white throne.
3. Then death and hades are cast where satan and the other two are.

That is unless you think rev 20 goes in reverse also (rolls eyes)

eternally-gratefull · Dec 6, 2011

cronjecj said:

Ah but satan is not bound until after this great tribulation. How can satan enter and control the man of sin during the tribulation if he is bound?

So messed up

And by the way, now that I am home and have access to my greek text.

Rev 20 starts out like this.

kai eidon angelon

kai is a conjunction. It is translated in the NT "and" "Also" or "then"

it is used to connect a coming idea or phrase with a previous phrase or idia.

eidon is translated see it is in the active sense meaning he was seeing this at this time

angelon is angel.

so it is translated "and" ir "also" or "then" I saw an angel

and again. there were no chapter verse separation in the original writings. so a perosn who would have read John's origional letter would have read this.

Chapter 19 - 20

Now (this is where the vision started) I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Then (After this) I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then (After this) the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. Then (after this) I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then (after this) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

this is how they would have read it. Before MAN inserted verse and chapters. Why did they put chapter 20 in when they did? I have no clue. But as you can see. the train of though flows effortlessly and in sequence.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 6, 2011

cronjecj said:

2 cor 5: 10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

the word translated judgment here is bema. In the greek period and language, this is the judgment where reward are given out. Much like in the olympics where rewards for those who run a race are given based on their performance.

It is not a tribunal where one is declared innocent or guilty. it is a judgment where ones work is tried, and we are rewarded for what we have done.

What is the reward? Simple. gold silver precious stones, or wood hey and straw. why? Because it is our work (what we have done in the body, whether good or bad)

this is different than the great white throne judgment.

in the great white throne judgment, the word translated judge is krino. it is a lagal term where a persons guilt or innocents is tried. and the person is either condemned as guilty, or declared innocent.

we notice a few things about this judgment;

from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged,(krino) each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

1. These people were delievered to Christ, not raised by him. they had no place to hide. A person in Christ would not try to hide. they look for his return. "The sea gave up its dead, and hades delivered these dead to Christ)
2. These people were called "dead" which means they were not spiritually alive, had never been born again. They came from hades, not paradise
3. They were judged according to their works. And found guilty.
4. Everyone at this judgment (death and hades) were cast into the lake of fire.

These are the two judgments my friend! Which one are you going to be at??

eternally-gratefull · Dec 6, 2011

cronjecj said:

Um the beast is the man who was taken over by satan. (Also called the "man of sin") Just like satan entered judas (the son of perdition) he will enter this world leader (the son of perdition) and rule him. Again, you need to study my friend. Prophesy is all through scripture. even end times prophesy you must put them all together to get the clear picture.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 6, 2011

AnandaHya said:

When one rules with an iron rod, they let no evil happen. that is what the term means.

also. He rules with this rod AFTER he returns to earth. And he uses it to enforce the wrath of God on mankind (evil)

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

What you said makes no sense. Christ is not ruling with an iron rod now. Because he is holding back the wrath of God. so that people will be saved. It is after this that he returns. THEN he rules with an iron fist. and pours out the wrath of God on mankind (evil)

a king who rules with an iron rod enforces his laws and does not allow anyone to break them. We are told Jesus will rule the nations with this rod. Jesus is not doing this now. or hitler would never have done what he did. All people (nations) would follow CVhrist, or be punished severely.

chapter 19:11 til chapter 20: 6 is the sequence of events which takes place at the return of Christ.

I can see it no other way.

This all assumes that the events of 19: 11 till 20: 6 would takes place at the same time then. This makes no sense whatsoever.

read chapter 20. The people who rule with Christ for 1000 years are those at the 1st ressurection. they are kings and priests. THAT IS US!there has been no ressurection so we can't be in the 1000 years. Not to mention. Birds can not eat the flesh of spirit beings. they have no flesh. these are kings and armies. killed.

Abiding · Dec 6, 2011

EG says: Ah but satan is not bound until after this great tribulation. How can satan enter and control the man of sin during the tribulation if he is bound?

So messed up
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2 thess 2:3-5 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Well what does this verse mean?

6And now ye know what withholdeth(rev.20:2..Lay hold...) that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, untill he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall the Wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy(when?) with the brightness of His coming.[what coming?]

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

shroom2 · Dec 6, 2011

Abiding said:

Did you comprehend what you wrote? Satan will not be bound until after the trib. He will control the antichrist before the end of the trib. He will control the antichrist before he is bound.

Think, man!

Necto · Dec 7, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Despite the fact that people have long believe in that, there is no grounds in Daniel 9 to assert that Christ fulfilled sevens. Moreover He was crucified at the end of 69 weeks. 70h week is not even started! You represent your inventions!

AnandaHya · Dec 7, 2011

Necto said:

want to do the math and back up your assertions?

when do you start the count and when did Jesus arrive?

What does Scripture tell us?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 7, 2011

Abiding said:

The "son of perdition" is the man with whom satan enters and controls. Judas was called the "son of perdition" when satan entered him and got him to turn Christ in to the romans

Here is this man, declaring himself to be God, standing in the temple. Doing what? Committing the abomination of desolation. As spoken of by daniel and Christ himself. Which is why he must destroy the "woman" or "babylon" because it would be the only thing strong enough to appose him.

your assumption that the word "restrain" in 2 thess 3:6 is the same as rev 20 is incorrect. Satan is restrained now by the church and the HS who is in her. He is free to do whatever to those who are not Christs. but he is not free to do whatever to Gods people. This will change in the tribulation as he is set free.

in rev 20, he is BOUND in a bottomless pit. where he is not free to do anything.

He would be the HS, Who lets (allows) satan to do things. but still has him under restraint. When he is removed. Satan will not longer be held in check, but free to do whatever he will. this is when he enters the "man of sin"

This is whome "THE LORD WILL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE LORDS COMING

Not only will satan be destroyed, but the man of sin, and those who follow him. because they followed the signs and wonders. this is the beast and false prophet.

I am not sure where your going with this abiding. But it supports everything i have said.

Rev 19:11 to 20:15 are in succession. it is all there as I showed a few posts ago!

eternally-gratefull · Dec 7, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Scripture tells us that from the time that the command to restore Jerusalem (not the temple, or anything else. the whole city) Until the day Jesus rod into Jerusalem on a donkey was exactly 69 weeks. Jesus even mentioned this when he declared "if you only knew what this day was' Isreal should have known this was the day messiah the prince would be revealed and enter. They did not because they were blind. Like so many are today

a Question for the Premillennialists

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