Worshipping the Bible is Idolatry!

[Crossfire]

Orthodoxy has much in common because they both come from the same Holy Tradition. Catholicism is what was derived from Orthodoxy, except only Catholicism has broken away from Orthodoxy and have become heretical.

The proof that I can give to show how Eastern Orthodoxy resembles the Early Church is in the ancient documents of the successors of the Apostles such as Bishop Clement of Rome who lived in the 1st and 2nd century.

Here is a quote from him talking about the succession of the Faith,

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" First Epistle of Clement Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 A.D. 80

And St Iranaus had this to say:

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:3:1 A.D. 189



If you would look at the documents of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers, which was written from the 1st to 4th Century, you would see how the early Church operated.

I own several books concerning the writing and works of the Early Church fathers concerning the Ante Nicene period however, seeing as you claim Apostolic succession I want to see proof that the Orthodox church has continued the works that the Apostles started. I want to know the Orthodox position concerning miracles, the gifts of the Spirit, deliverance, sanctification, etc.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

I own several books concerning the writing and works of the Early Church fathers

concerning the Ante Nicene period however, seeing as you claim Apostolic succession I

want to see proof that the Orthodox church has continued the works that the Apostles

started. I want to know the Orthodox position concerning miracles, the gifts of the Spirit,

deliverance, sanctification, etc.

Dear Crossfire:

Miracles don't prove sanctity or the blessing of God. Because even Judas Iscariot worked miracles, but

he got lost.

Gifts of the Spirit (genuine ones) come only from God. But there are counterfeit gifts and counterfeit

miracles. For a Protestant perspective, see: Counterfeit Miracles, Benjamin B. Warfield, Banner of Truth

Trust, Carlisle, PA. A Protestant perspective on Roman Catholicism; not on Eastern Orthodoxy.


Only Christ can deliver us from the evil one. As for sanctification ... Sanctification is by faith in Christ,

and is a gift of Christ's mercy (Titus 3:5), alone, by the working of the Spirit Who works good works in us

in Christ (Eph. 2:10).

To know Orthodoxy, you must be willing to believe in Orthodoxy. For "without Faith (the Faith) it is

impossible to please God".

What is The True Faith?

First, a word of prayer;


"Help us, save us, have mercy on us, and keep us, O God, by Thy grace. Lord, have mercy." (OLD

ORTHODOX PRAYER BOOK, SECOND EDITION, 2001; page 117.).

THE TRUE FAITH (THE ONE HOLY ORTHODOX CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC FAITH)

"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and

invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all

ages; Light of Light, true God of of true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by

Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was

incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man; He was crucified for us under

Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and arose on the third day, according to the scriptures. And

ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to

judge the living and the dead, of Whose Kingdom there is no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord true

and life-giving, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is

worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. And in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I

confess one baptism for the remission of sins. I wait for the resurrection of the dead, And the life of the

age to come. Amen." (OLD ORTHODOX PRAYER BOOK, Second Edition, 2001, page 110.). Erie PA

Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ, Old Rite.

God bless us in Christ Jesus our Blessed Saviour. Amen. Blessed is He, Jesus Christ our Lord, Who cometh

in the Name of the LORD: HOSANNA in the Highest! Amen. LORD have mercy. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R.

Harrington PS GOD BLESS YOU; AMEN.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

I own several books concerning the writing and works of the Early Church fathers concerning the Ante Nicene period however, seeing as you claim Apostolic succession I want to see proof that the Orthodox church has continued the works that the Apostles started. I want to know the Orthodox position concerning miracles, the gifts of the Spirit, deliverance, sanctification, etc.

Religion, true religion, is mentioned in the Epistle of St. James.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The belief of the Orthodox Church is in the Holy Spirit who opened the minds (Greek - NOUS) of the Church Fathers to "rightly divide the word of Truth" (2 Tim 1:15), and to "shepherd the flock of God exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God (had them.) would have you; "(1 Peter 5:2)


Jesus said that he would send the Spirit of Truth - when? After His Ascension and the day of Pentecost. Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would, "guide you (them) into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will announce to you (them) things to come. John 16:13

Who did it guide into all the Truth? It was the Apostles and the Successors of the Apostles. Here is a list of the Eastern Orthodox Churches which have Apostolic Succession.

Apostolic succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- The Patriarchate of Constantinople has unbroken succession to the Throne of Saint Andrew.

- The Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria has unbroken succession to the Throne of Saint Mark[21]

- The Russian Orthodox Church has unbroken succession to the Throne of Saint Andrew[22]

- The Orthodox Church of Cyprus has unbroken succession to the Throne of Saint Barnabas[27]

- The Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem has succession to the Throne of Saint James the Just,[29] although this line includes Patriarchs in exile.[30] (see Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem )






We are only righteous when we are Saints, we are not Saints yet. Only when we have deified out bodies and souls in Christ will we be "Righteous". A least speaking for myself. I know that I am not righteous. I maybe self righteous sometimes but I try to pray like the Publican and not the Pharisee.

Jesus told them to go out and make disciples. WHo in turn would go out and make more disciples. This "disciple" making, would be how God would Grow his church.

I disagree strongly with you. Jesus promised the spirit would guide US into all truth. The spirit is given to ALL who are saved. we are told we are sealed by the spirit of God who is in us. To say the HS is limited to only teach certain men. and not all men is to limit God.

The only people who need to do this are those who teach a false gospel. If you taught truth, you would not have to teach the HS only taught certain men. But would agree he teaches all men (who open their hearts)

2nd. No one is righteous. No one will ever be a saint by their own accord. it does not matter who they are.

We are ALL set apart by God. Because God sees us, he sees his son, not our sin.

Why you people think you can earn grace is beyond me!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Haven't you bought into the Lutheran lie that "It is so because Herr Doctor, Martin Luther, say it is so"?

Who cares what Luther taught? Is luther alive today? Is he my elder? He is a MAN who lived how long ago??

I follow the word of God. The word of God says

1. Not of works (of any kind) Eph 2: 8-9
2. Not by works of the law (various)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done (any good deed (titus 3: 5)

So tell me, What is faith minus work of ANY KIND PERIOD?

I did not need luther to tell me anything. Gods word makes it clear. with or without luther I would believe what I believe. The only thing could stop me is if i lived during the over 1000 years of roman rule, where you believed as they did or you risked getting killed. And then I could only pray God showed me truth. and I would welcome going to my death for truth.

Your churches use of Luther as a scapegoat is only fooling the people who worship your church.

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

Jesus told them to go out and make disciples. WHo in turn would go out and make more disciples. This "disciple" making, would be how God would Grow his church.

I disagree strongly with you. Jesus promised the spirit would guide US into all truth. The spirit is given to ALL who are saved. we are told we are sealed by the spirit of God who is in us. To say the HS is limited to only teach certain men. and not all men is to limit God.
The only people who need to do this are those who teach a false gospel. If you taught truth, you would not have to teach the HS only taught certain men. But would agree he teaches all men (who open their hearts)

Sure, yes but you are making a big mistake when you deny the Ancient Church of Christ because you are then affirming that Jesus did not "lead us into all Truth" at Pentecost. Jesus said, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will announce to you things to come. John 16:13

When did the Spirit of Truth come? On the day of Pentecost. What did Jesus say the Spirit of Truth would do? He would "lead us into ALL Truth and will announce to us things to come".

Jesus Christ gave the Spirit of Truth to the Church. So what is the Church? It is the "House of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the Truth." (1 Tim 3:15) Where is the Church? It explains to us in Acts 2 and in the Epistles of Paul. The Church is where right believing Christians come to worship in one Faith, one Lord and One Baptism (Eph 4:4-6). It is where the Christians are "all with one accord in one place." (Acts 2:1).

The Church is that depository which Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles. The Lord Jesus Christ told the Apostle Peter that, "On this rock (that is his rock of faith in Christ) I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it". (Matt 16:18)
How have the "Gates of Hell" not prevailed against the Orthodox Church? Because of its unchanging doctrine, worship, and the operation of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

The only people who need to do this are those who teach a false gospel. If you taught truth, you would not have to teach the HS only taught certain men. But would agree he teaches all men (who open their hearts)

That's not true. We must have teachers in order to us to come to the "Unity of the Faith and the Knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ",

Eph 4:8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men."
Eph 4:9 But that "He ascended"--what it is but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
Eph 4:14 that we may no longer be infants, being tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming,
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ;



Right here the Apostle Paul is telling us that we need teachers and pastors. He lists 7 reasons why Christ gave unto us pastors and teachers. We are not perfect without teachers, he states right there when he says, "for the perfecting of the saints", and, "until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

2nd. No one is righteous. No one will ever be a saint by their own accord. it does not matter who they are.

We are ALL set apart by God. Because God sees us, he sees his son, not our sin.

Why you people think you can earn grace is beyond me!

No we are not all magically righteous when we receive Jesus. This is not the Gospel teaching. The Apostle Paul said, "Not that I have already obtained, or have already been made perfect; but I press on, if also I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." Php 3:12

And in the same letter he says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" (php 2:12)


In the Eastern Orthodox Church the virtue of humility is greatly stressed. We don't ever give ourselves the right to declare ourselves righteous until we have been declared so by God.

" For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth". 2Co_10:18


How do you know you are saved? You won't know until the Lord tells you, not when you yourself tell yourself. When will you know? After death.

 

[Crossfire]

Jesus told them to go out and make disciples. WHo in turn would go out and make more disciples. This "disciple" making, would be how God would Grow his church.

I disagree strongly with you. Jesus promised the spirit would guide US into all truth. The spirit is given to ALL who are saved. we are told we are sealed by the spirit of God who is in us. To say the HS is limited to only teach certain men. and not all men is to limit God.

The only people who need to do this are those who teach a false gospel. If you taught truth, you would not have to teach the HS only taught certain men. But would agree he teaches all men (who open their hearts)

2nd. No one is righteous. No one will ever be a saint by their own accord. it does not matter who they are.

We are ALL set apart by God. Because God sees us, he sees his son, not our sin.

Why you people think you can earn grace is beyond me!

I personally do not believe one can earn grace. However, I do believe that the grace of God is the inspiration for holy living. In other words, it is the grace of God which inspires true believers to live gracefully, to extend the same love and mercy that the Lord has so freely bestowed to them toward others. To sum things up, our holiness is in response to (thus preceded by) God's grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure, yes but you are making a big mistake when you deny the Ancient Church of Christ because you are then affirming that Jesus did not "lead us into all Truth" at Pentecost. Jesus said, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will announce to you things to come. John 16:13

When did the Spirit of Truth come? On the day of Pentecost. What did Jesus say the Spirit of Truth would do? He would "lead us into ALL Truth and will announce to us things to come".

Jesus Christ gave the Spirit of Truth to the Church. So what is the Church? It is the "House of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the Truth." (1 Tim 3:15) Where is the Church? It explains to us in Acts 2 and in the Epistles of Paul. The Church is where right believing Christians come to worship in one Faith, one Lord and One Baptism (Eph 4:4-6). It is where the Christians are "all with one accord in one place." (Acts 2:1).

The Church is that depository which Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles. The Lord Jesus Christ told the Apostle Peter that, "On this rock (that is his rock of faith in Christ) I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it". (Matt 16:18)
How have the "Gates of Hell" not prevailed against the Orthodox Church? Because of its unchanging doctrine, worship, and the operation of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

1. A gate is not an offensive weapon. Where people get this idea is beyond me.

In Christ's day, when he made this statement. A gate was the defense of a city. It was used to prevent an enemy from getting into the city. The Gate of hell would be a gate used to keep the church out of enemy territory and rescuing people who are in it. This is what Christ promised. Why you want to turn this around and use it to support your church is beyond me.

The true church will teach the true gospel spoken of by Christ. The orthodox church does not teach this gospel. It does not matter if their doctrines have not changed in 4000 years. A 4000 year lie is still a lie.

2. God promised the spirit would teach all. He is still doing that today. He still teaches me. It is sad that you do not think the spirit would not teach you. The rock is the faith in Christ. We all have that rock. that is what makes us the church. the family of god. Your either in it. or your not. there is no inbetween. God does not know those who are not his (saved) your church does not teach this. They teach that you have to work to earn being a member of gods family. That is not a part of scripture.

That's not true. We must have teachers in order to us to come to the "Unity of the Faith and the Knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ",

Eph 4:8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men."
Eph 4:9 But that "He ascended"--what it is but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
Eph 4:14 that we may no longer be infants, being tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming,
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ;



Right here the Apostle Paul is telling us that we need teachers and pastors. He lists 7 reasons why Christ gave unto us pastors and teachers. We are not perfect without teachers, he states right there when he says, "for the perfecting of the saints", and, "until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

We have to know who are the right teachers. God said in his word many false teachers would come and distort the truth. They were doing it in Pauls day. He had to send timothy to Ephesus because some elders of that church had distorted truth, and were now teaching a lie. God told Timothy what would be the symbol of truth, and the guidline. Scripture. Without scripture. all we have is a man saying listen to me, I am from god. Don't listen to no body else.

This happened many times in the OT. Where the "leaders" of the temple had distorted truth and made it into a lie. and forced their belief on the people they had power over. This is why Mary was so scared when Jesus spoke against these leaders. She feared for Christ's life because she kew the power the religious leaders had. Because she did not trust God that God would do what he promised through Christ. So what did she say? Jesus has a demon (he was crazy) to try to protect her son.

So to think this did not happen in the church, and people did not distort truth, and force this lie on the world in the name of the power that be (rome) is to place trust in men and not God. If scripture could back their doctrines up. I would have no problem. But the fact is scripture does not. Jesus said in John 6 it is the spirit which giveth life (the same as he did in acts whern he said the spirit of truth will teach you all things) why? because the words Jesus spoke ( which he said were of God, and he said the spirit will teach the words are from God) is spirit, and it is LIFE.

Jesus told peter he was cleansed from the words jesus spoke. we can be cleansed by this same spirit. Not from some religious ceremony. But by faith and trust that what God said through Jesus, the prophets and the apostles is truth. and what God promised (eternal life) he will not go back on.

Sorry if I do not buy that line of reasoning. God did not teach it. Why you are putting your faith in men and not the word of god is beyond me. And it is sad

No we are not all magically righteous when we receive Jesus. This is not the Gospel teaching. The Apostle Paul said, "Not that I have already obtained, or have already been made perfect; but I press on, if also I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." Php 3:12

And in the same letter he says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" (php 2:12)


In the Eastern Orthodox Church the virtue of humility is greatly stressed. We don't ever give ourselves the right to declare ourselves righteous until we have been declared so by God.

" For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth". 2Co_10:18

yet this same paul said

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26 - That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Rom 8 : 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness

Rom 6 : 8 - 11 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 cor 1:30 But of him you are in Chris Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and rightiousness ( declared rightious) and sanctification (set apart) and redemption (redeemed or purchased)

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

rom 3:24..being justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ. Jesus.

Our redemption is free. it is through grace (mercy) not earned. It is paid for by th eblood of Christ (redemption) not by our good deeds.

It was even said in the begining of the church

Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

The main topic of all these verses is belief and faith (basically both the same greek word, which means a trust, or full assurance) we can pick and chose verses all we want to make our doctrines appear true. But only by taking the bible as a whole can wee see truth.

John tells us in his epistle. he told us things that we may "know we have eternal life" He did not say we might think we have it. Like Scott claimed earlier. We don't have to think or guess, we can know. Why? Because we "believe in his name" not because God told us through some man or some vision.

How do you know you are saved? You won't know until the Lord tells you, not when you yourself tell yourself. When will you know? After death.

Then John is a liar when he said we can "know we have it" how can we know if we can't possibly know until we die? What your teaching is a modern day version of judaism, a works based gospel where people have to earn salvation. and can not know they have it till they die. depending on how theiy lived their life (how righteous they were) News flash. There are non righteous. If we beak even the least of the law, we are found guilty of the whole law. The penalty of sin is death. One sins condemns us before Christ. so there is no way anyone will ever earn salvation. No one will ever be good enough to stand before Christ. EVER. Only by Christ's blood can we be cleansed, or justified (declared innocent)

As paul says, Christ took the penalty which was against us, and nailed it to the cross. so we could be set free from the penalty of sin.

Paul tells us through titus that we have a hope (of which our faith is based on) and that hope is "eternal life, which God who can not lie, promised before time began" If I do not have eternal life. I have no hope. If I have no hope. I have no faith.

I have faith in what God said, all who believe in him he will in no means cast out. That whjoever places their faith in him HAS (present tense) eternal life. If this is not true, God lied. Then he is no god at all. So yes. I know I am saved, Because God told me through his word.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

eternally-gratefull;609268]

Who cares what Luther taught? Is luther alive today? Is he my elder? He is a MAN who lived how long ago??

I follow the word of God. The word of God says

eternallygratefull:
You care what Luther taught. Faith alone comes from Luther. Not from the Bible.
Luther was wrong. Anyone who teaches faith alone is wrong, according to Galatians 5:6.
1 Cor. 13:13 says love is greater than faith.
Scott


1. Not of works (of any kind) Eph 2: 8-9
eternallygratefull:
By works of a good kind James 2:24
Eph. 2:8-9 does not say "of any kind". You're adding those words to the Bible.
The Bible warns against adding false words to the Bible.
Scott

2. Not by works of the law (various)

eternallygratefull:
True. Not by works of the law. Not by works of any kind, but just by works of the law. Circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices,
ceremonial laws. Scott


Not by works of righteousness which we have done (any good deed (titus 3: 5)

eternallygratefull:
True. Titus 3:5 says we do not work our own salvation. Scott

So tell me, What is faith minus work of ANY KIND PERIOD?

eternallygratefull:
According to James, faith without works is dead.
Scott


I did not need luther to tell me anything. Gods word makes it clear. with or without luther I would believe what I believe. The only thing could stop me is if i lived during the over 1000 years of roman rule, where you believed as they did or you risked getting killed. And then I could only pray God showed me truth. and I would welcome going to my death for truth.

Your churches use of Luther as a scapegoat is only fooling the people who worship your church.



Eternallgratefull:
Sorry. Your words are full of venom and full of misrepresentations. You also use ad hominem arguments.
And you also don't say the Church is God's (Matt. 16:18). There is no such thing as "your church" versus
"my church". There is only THE Church (EPHESIANS 4).
The problem is YOU ONLY BELIEVE THE PARTS OF THE BIBLE YOU WANT TO BELIEVE, AND THE PARTS YOU SELECT YOU TWIST, TO YOUR OWN DESTRUCTION, INTERPRETING THE PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE WITH YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS. GOD BLESS YOU. In Erie Scott
PS Don't you believe Galatians 5:6 and 1 Corinthians 13:13?

 

[shroom2]

...There is only THE Church (EPHESIANS 4)....

Right. The body of Christ. Not the EO religion.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Right. The body of Christ. Not the EO religion.

Please explain your "invisible church" theory, okay? Which visible church is "the body of Christ", then?

EO is not a religion. It's an experience of Christ in the Church.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

1. A gate is not an offensive weapon. Where people get this idea is beyond me.

In Christ's day, when he made this statement. A gate was the defense of a city. It was used to prevent an enemy from getting into the city. The Gate of hell would be a gate used to keep the church out of enemy territory and rescuing people who are in it. This is what Christ promised. Why you want to turn this around and use it to support your church is beyond me.

The true church will teach the true gospel spoken of by Christ. The orthodox church does not teach this gospel. It does not matter if their doctrines have not changed in 4000 years. A 4000 year lie is still a lie.

2. God promised the spirit would teach all. He is still doing that today. He still teaches me. It is sad that you do not think the spirit would not teach you. The rock is the faith in Christ. We all have that rock. that is what makes us the church. the family of god. Your either in it. or your not. there is no inbetween. God does not know those who are not his (saved) your church does not teach this. They teach that you have to work to earn being a member of gods family. That is not a part of scripture.



We have to know who are the right teachers. God said in his word many false teachers would come and distort the truth. They were doing it in Pauls day. He had to send timothy to Ephesus because some elders of that church had distorted truth, and were now teaching a lie. God told Timothy what would be the symbol of truth, and the guidline. Scripture. Without scripture. all we have is a man saying listen to me, I am from god. Don't listen to no body else.

This happened many times in the OT. Where the "leaders" of the temple had distorted truth and made it into a lie. and forced their belief on the people they had power over. This is why Mary was so scared when Jesus spoke against these leaders. She feared for Christ's life because she kew the power the religious leaders had. Because she did not trust God that God would do what he promised through Christ. So what did she say? Jesus has a demon (he was crazy) to try to protect her son.

So to think this did not happen in the church, and people did not distort truth, and force this lie on the world in the name of the power that be (rome) is to place trust in men and not God. If scripture could back their doctrines up. I would have no problem. But the fact is scripture does not. Jesus said in John 6 it is the spirit which giveth life (the same as he did in acts whern he said the spirit of truth will teach you all things) why? because the words Jesus spoke ( which he said were of God, and he said the spirit will teach the words are from God) is spirit, and it is LIFE.

Jesus told peter he was cleansed from the words jesus spoke. we can be cleansed by this same spirit. Not from some religious ceremony. But by faith and trust that what God said through Jesus, the prophets and the apostles is truth. and what God promised (eternal life) he will not go back on.

Sorry if I do not buy that line of reasoning. God did not teach it. Why you are putting your faith in men and not the word of god is beyond me. And it is sad



yet this same paul said

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26 - That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Rom 8 : 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness

Rom 6 : 8 - 11 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 cor 1:30 But of him you are in Chris Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and rightiousness ( declared rightious) and sanctification (set apart) and redemption (redeemed or purchased)

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

rom 3:24..being justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ. Jesus.

Our redemption is free. it is through grace (mercy) not earned. It is paid for by th eblood of Christ (redemption) not by our good deeds.

It was even said in the begining of the church

Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

The main topic of all these verses is belief and faith (basically both the same greek word, which means a trust, or full assurance) we can pick and chose verses all we want to make our doctrines appear true. But only by taking the bible as a whole can wee see truth.

John tells us in his epistle. he told us things that we may "know we have eternal life" He did not say we might think we have it. Like Scott claimed earlier. We don't have to think or guess, we can know. Why? Because we "believe in his name" not because God told us through some man or some vision.



Then John is a liar when he said we can "know we have it" how can we know if we can't possibly know until we die? What your teaching is a modern day version of judaism, a works based gospel where people have to earn salvation. and can not know they have it till they die. depending on how theiy lived their life (how righteous they were) News flash. There are non righteous. If we beak even the least of the law, we are found guilty of the whole law. The penalty of sin is death. One sins condemns us before Christ. so there is no way anyone will ever earn salvation. No one will ever be good enough to stand before Christ. EVER. Only by Christ's blood can we be cleansed, or justified (declared innocent)

As paul says, Christ took the penalty which was against us, and nailed it to the cross. so we could be set free from the penalty of sin.

Paul tells us through titus that we have a hope (of which our faith is based on) and that hope is "eternal life, which God who can not lie, promised before time began" If I do not have eternal life. I have no hope. If I have no hope. I have no faith.

I have faith in what God said, all who believe in him he will in no means cast out. That whjoever places their faith in him HAS (present tense) eternal life. If this is not true, God lied. Then he is no god at all. So yes. I know I am saved, Because God told me through his word.

Funny how you have confidence of yourself in heaven.

But no confidence of the Virgin Mary, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John, St. Andrew, St. Matthew, and so on, being in heaven. To you, they are "dead saints". They aren't alive in heaven. You're not even sure they made it to heaven, are you?
How can Protestants have so much confidence in their own personal salvation, and no confidence in the personal salvation of the Saints of the New Testament? How can they say that these people are all dead?
Don't they believe in the immortality of the soul.
When the body dies, it is only bodily death. The spirit-soul remains alive and with Christ. To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.
By being born again (Mark 16, John 3, Acts 2:38), we can be saved from the second death, the death of the spirit-soul after bodily death. This is the kind of death that is most important to be saved from: spiritual death. Not from physical death. Just because the saints of the NT are physically dead does not mean they are dead saints in the truest sense of dead. In their spirits, they are all born again in Christ, and partakers of the divine nature.
Yes, we can have a certain hope and confidence of being saved by Jesus Christ. But it should not turn into presumption. Christian Hope (Hope in Christ) is beyond knowledge and beyond rationalistic certainty, and mere intellectual faith.
I believe we all can be saved because the Bible promises, Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved.
Lord have mercy on us. Amen.

 

[shroom2]

Please explain your "invisible church" theory, okay?

1 Cor 12:12ff
Eph 1:22-23

Many, many many more, Scott.

Which visible church is "the body of Christ", then?

All Christians, no matter their denomination, are members of the body of Christ.

EO is not a religion. It's an experience of Christ in the Church.

I'm sure it's an "experience".

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Jesus told them to go out and make disciples. WHo in turn would go out and make more disciples. This "disciple" making, would be how God would Grow his church.

I disagree strongly with you. Jesus promised the spirit would guide US into all truth. The spirit is given to ALL who are saved. we are told we are sealed by the spirit of God who is in us. To say the HS is limited to only teach certain men. and not all men is to limit God.

The only people who need to do this are those who teach a false gospel. If you taught truth, you would not have to teach the HS only taught certain men. But would agree he teaches all men (who open their hearts)

2nd. No one is righteous. No one will ever be a saint by their own accord. it does not matter who they are.

We are ALL set apart by God. Because God sees us, he sees his son, not our sin.

Why you people think you can earn grace is beyond me![

/quote]


Why you think we think that we can earn grace is beyond me! You commit the "mind reading fallacy!"

Take care!

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

1 Cor 12:12ff

Eph 1:22-23

Many, many many more, Scott.


All Christians, no matter their denomination, are members of the body of Christ.


I'm sure it's an "experience".[

/quote]


Not all denominations are Christian

Jehovah's Witnesses

Armstrongists

Way International

Unification "church"

Mormonism

Christadelphians

Swedenborgians

They all come "in the name of Christ", but they aren't Christian.

Don't you understand that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why you think we think that we can earn grace is beyond me! You commit the "mind reading fallacy!"

Take care!

What mind reading?

To a greek speaking person. Grace "Charis" meant a gift. or something that was freely given, whether it be time, or something physical. They would have NEVER used it in such a way that one had to work to earn the so called gift.

If I was a greek father, and my child did something wrong. If I made her work for my forgiveness, my forgiveness was not a gift, but a reward for what she did to "pay the debt" for my forgiveness.

If on the other hand, I forgave her freely, with nothing asked in return. I have forgiven out of love through cherity or grace.

If I am a judge, and someone stands before me, guilty of a crime. And I feel cheritable. I might freely forgive the person his debt (for the crime he commited" and set him free out of cherity or grace.

if on the other hand, I make him pay his debt to society, His forgiveness was earned and not cherity or grace.

If I am a judge, and someone commits murder, and there payment is the death penalty. And someone else makes payment in their place (called redemption, or they purchased the persons forgiveness by his own death) then the person who is guilty is set free of payment, because someone else, out of love, took the payment for them.

In this scenario. if the person who makes the ransom asks for something in return. it was not charity or grace, but it was a reward. a payment which the guilty person EARNED by doing what was asked.

If on the other hand, He does it just out of love, it is called grace, And the guilty is set free of obligation of debt "penalty for her crime" as a gift from the person who payed her debt.

Another senario would be the judge accepts the loving grace gift of the person. and executes the person in her place. Thus the penalty was "payed in full" and the girl should be set free. Yet if the judge still imposes a penalty on the lady as a means of her forgiveness of debt. The judge is an evil judge, who caused double jeopardy on the person who was guilty. By taking one debt, which payed it in full, and asked for more in return. (this is what most churches say God does, when they say we must work to earn salvation)

You see. The penalty for every one of my sins is death. I will suffer than penalty for all eternity unless my sin debt is forgiven, or paid by someone else. This is called redemption.

Just like the loving man who showed love and grace and died for the guilty murderer he loved. So Christ, out of grave, died for me, whome he loved.

If Christ asked me to do something to earn this freedom, It is not grace, but a reward which I earned. meaning I would take credit because I earned it.

Also, If God says he accepts Jesus payment in full (which he proved he did by raising Christ from the dead) And I receive this grace gift of freedom. but God says wait a minute. Yes Jesus paid your debt, but you have to do this and that to receive it. It is not charity or grace, but a reward I earned. Not to mention God has imposed double jeopardy on me, buy asking for a debt which was not even a part of my punishment to begin with.

That is not what scripture says.

1. Jesus said it (the plan of salvation) was finished. Nothing else needs to be added.
2. Paul says in Col 2 that Christ took my penaly, or my debt (death) and nailed it to the cross. and because of it. I, Who was dead in my sin, am made alive.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us,(the penalty of sin is death, thus the ONLY ordinance which was against us was death) and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


If the penalty was removed. And because of Christ's death, we are setr free, Made Alive who were dead in sin, Then who are we to add to this gospel, and say it which was finished must be completed until the end, or we must work to earn this free charity or grace gift.

So I do not know what you mean by mind reading. But my comment stands. Why people think they can earn charity or grace is beyond me. It is strickly from satan himself. and has been his lie since day one!

 

[shroom2]

1 Cor 12:12ff
Eph 1:22-23

Many, many many more, Scott.

All Christians, no matter their denomination, are members of the body of Christ.

I'm sure it's an "experience".

Not all denominations are Christian

Jehovah's Witnesses

Armstrongists

Way International

Unification "church"

Mormonism

Christadelphians

Swedenborgians

They all come "in the name of Christ", but they aren't Christian.

Don't you understand that?

Did you read what I posted? I said all Christians, no matter their denomination, are members of the body of Christ. If a person is a Christian, meaning he has acted on Romans 10:9, he is a member of the church of the body of Christ, regardless of his denomination. A person does not have to belong to the "right denomination" (or the EO religion) to be a Christian. He needs to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

1 Cor 12:12ff
Eph 1:22-23

Many, many many more, Scott.


All Christians, no matter their denomination, are members of the body of Christ.


I'm sure it's an "experience".

The words "invisible church" are not in Eph. 1:22-23 and 1 Cor. 12:12ff; I can tell that without reading the verses you cite, again, I believe you take most things out of context.
The concept of invisible church is nowhere in the Bible either, even if the words aren't there it could be true, but the concept isn't there, either. Nowhere is it found in any verse of the whole Bible.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Did you read what I posted? I said all Christians, no matter their denomination, are members of the body of Christ. If a person is a Christian, meaning he has acted on Romans 10:9, he is a member of the church of the body of Christ, regardless of his denomination. A person does not have to belong to the "right denomination" (or the EO religion) to be a Christian. He needs to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.

A person needs not to be a heretic to be a true Christian. All non-Orthodox denominations teach some heresies. The EOC doesn't teach any heresies. THAT is the DIFFERENCE!

 

[shroom2]

A person needs not to be a heretic to be a true Christian. All non-Orthodox denominations teach some heresies. The EOC doesn't teach any heresies. THAT is the DIFFERENCE!

Are you saying that only followers of the EOC are Christian?

If you are, you are wrong.