The Day of The Lord - The Event that Starts the End of the World

[Avinu]

Omega, I noticed also that you keep using the verse "He comes as a thief in the night" as part of your proof that there is a rapture?
In Rev. 16:15 "Behold, I AM COMING AS A THIEF. Blessed is he who watches, and kepps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
This verse that you've been using shows up in Revelation way after the so called rapture would have happened. The very next verse starts the battle of Armageddon.

The word garments is just what it is. To make sure you're dressed and ready. Just like Yah had Israel on the first passover, on the last plague of Egypt. He told them to have their garments on and ready to go. So Yeshua tells us the same thing here in Revelation, basically "be dressed and ready to go, cause here I come."

 

[A-Omega]

My friend, I just don't get why you can't see what I'm saying. The devil will be allowed to kill most of the saints during trib. by beheading mostly. But as we know not all will be killed. But @ the end of tribulation, just before Yeshua returns Yah will pour out His wrath upon the wicked of the earth, and many of them will die, but because we belong to Yah, His wrath will not be allowed to touch us. Just as His wrath was not allowed to touch Israel when He poured those plagues on Egypt, which ironically the tribulation has almost the exact same plagues minus a couple. I ask you, why is it so hard to believe this? You believe all the miracles in the Bible right? So why is it hard to believe this? Shalom

I don't believe it, because God is not going to let the Antichrist harm the Bride of Christ. The whole purpose of the Rapture is for Jesus to come for His bride. We then will hide in the marital chamber for a week (7 years, Just as Jacob fulfilled his "week" of 7 years for Leah) and emerge WITH THE BRIDEGROOM. It is also foreshadowed by the consecration of the priests for 7 days behind the doors of the temple before gathering with the rest of the nation. I mean, it's really, really foreshadowed all over in Old Testament scripture.

The post trib model ignores the primary purpose of the Rapture, prophesied all throughout the OT. The Great Tribulation is SEVEN years. GOD, not the Antichrist, starts His Wrath at the 6th Seal. The Antichrist is just a tool of God (the Lord refers to him as an ax in His hand). He's never really running anything. At the midpoint the Antichrist will reveal his true colors, betray Israel and persecute the saints who have converted in the prior 3 1/2 (thanks to the ministry of the 2 witnesses and the 144,000). We, meaning the church, are gone before all that starts.

For more Biblical evidence for why the post-trib model does not work, see some of the threads I have started called "Post-trib failure." They are much more detailed and provide the scriptural backing for these ideas. I posted them because it seems a lot of people in this forum believe in the post-trib model. God bless.

 

[A-Omega]

Omega, I noticed also that you keep using the verse "He comes as a thief in the night" as part of your proof that there is a rapture?
In Rev. 16:15 "Behold, I AM COMING AS A THIEF. Blessed is he who watches, and kepps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
This verse that you've been using shows up in Revelation way after the so called rapture would have happened. The very next verse starts the battle of Armageddon.

The word garments is just what it is. To make sure you're dressed and ready. Just like Yah had Israel on the first passover, on the last plague of Egypt. He told them to have their garments on and ready to go. So Yeshua tells us the same thing here in Revelation, basically "be dressed and ready to go, cause here I come."

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


You'll note that in this chapter John is SEEING the angels pouring out the vials. So verse 15 is Jesus speaking and interjecting while John is watching. Jesus is again issuing a warning to those who are reading this prophecy. He is not saying He is going to come "as a thief" at Armageddon. He is again reminding us who are here today to be scared of all of this destruction and death of the Great tribulation and watch for Him. Then we receive our garments as a reward. This is a reference again to the rapture. The Groom (Jesus) comes as a thief to "snatch" his bride (the church). This happens at the 6th Seal. The Raptured church is seen, with their garments, in Revelation 7. The verse in Rev 16 is just another admonishment to Christians to truly believe Jesus and the Bible and live for Him. Many people who call themselves Christians will miss the rapture. They are the ones who will be naked. This is what Jesus means when He told the parable of the wedding invitation:


11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.




This is not a reference to that guest going to hell. it is to missing the rapture and being caught in the Great Tribulation. notice it says "weeping" and gnashing of teeth. Jesus specifically says in Matthew 24, that after seeing the "sign of the Son of Man" the unbelieving world will be in "mourning" The heathen world is not in mourning at Armageddon. They are angry and ready to fight Jesus. At the Day of The Lord, they are scared and in mourning because they know that God has now risen to punish them.

I hope that makes sense. God bless.

 

[A-Omega]

Oh yeah. For more on a bride being snatched, see Judges 21. The tribe of Benjamin was going to be cut off but a plan was made to redeem them by having them hide and then literally snatch brides from the group of Gentile women. And don't forget than the name "Benjamin" means "son of the right hand" which again really, really seems to allude to Jesus.

The Bible is telling us this all throughout and Jesus confirms it. This is why He is preparing a place for us in Heaven. If you're a post-tribber, you never even get to see the mansion Jesus is making for us!

 

[Avinu]

I don't believe it, because God is not going to let the Antichrist harm the Bride of Christ. The whole purpose of the Rapture is for Jesus to come for His bride. We then will hide in the marital chamber for a week (7 years, Just as Jacob fulfilled his "week" of 7 years for Leah) and emerge WITH THE BRIDEGROOM. It is also foreshadowed by the consecration of the priests for 7 days behind the doors of the temple before gathering with the rest of the nation. I mean, it's really, really foreshadowed all over in Old Testament scripture.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF YESHUA MESSIAH.

Rev.13:7 It was GRANTED him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, who had NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FOREHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years.

There is absolutely nothing in the OT that backs any kind of rapture my friend. I'm sorry but it doesn't exist.

The post trib model ignores the primary purpose of the Rapture, prophesied all throughout the OT. The Great Tribulation is SEVEN years. GOD, not the Antichrist, starts His Wrath at the 6th Seal. The Antichrist is just a tool of God (the Lord refers to him as an ax in His hand). He's never really running anything. At the midpoint the Antichrist will reveal his true colors, betray Israel and persecute the saints who have converted in the prior 3 1/2 (thanks to the ministry of the 2 witnesses and the 144,000). We, meaning the church, are gone before all that starts.

No where in the Bible does it say the great trib. is 7 yrs. It says it is 42 months, 3.5 yrs. a time, times and half a time. 1260 days.
Show me one place where it says the 2 witnesses will be prophesying the first 3.5 yrs. And show me where it says the 144,000 will preach to the world. This is adding to the Word and making assumptions or going off of what some pastor said. This is the kind of stuff that makes people(who are unlearned) confused, because the Bible doesn't say this as you claim. And if people refused to repent before the 'so-called rapture' happened, how can you be so sure they will afterwards? They'll think they definitely missed their chance by then.

For more Biblical evidence for why the post-trib model does not work, see some of the threads I have started called "Post-trib failure." They are much more detailed and provide the scriptural backing for these ideas. I posted them because it seems a lot of people in this forum believe in the post-trib model. God bless.

I'm sorry Omega, but you can't use scripture to disprove scripture. There is no rapture, I use to believe in it, until Yah told me to start reading His word and stop listening to the false pastors and teachers out their. You need to do the same my friend. They are liars and are teaching lies. Yah has NEVER raptured anyone out of any tribulation time EVER in history. So why now would He change His pattern of doing things. How did we suddenly become more special then all His saints through out history? The disciples were all tortured, beaten, flogged, rodded(this is where they beat the bottom of your feet till your ankles break), shipwrecked, etc. and then each one was violently and brutally murdered(except for John) Paul was beheaded, Kefa(Peter)crucified upside down, others were filleted alive, etc. And we are more special then them that we suddenly get to be spared? Sorry Omega that is not how it works, even Yeshua said the servant is not greater than His Master, and Yeshua went through the worst of it. Omega, we will go through tribulation, we will suffer for Yeshua, and we should be thankful that He would find us worthy to suffer for His name sake. Shalom

 

[A-Omega]

I'm sorry Omega, but you can't use scripture to disprove scripture. There is no rapture, I use to believe in it, until Yah told me to start reading His word and stop listening to the false pastors and teachers out their. You need to do the same my friend. They are liars and are teaching lies. Yah has NEVER raptured anyone out of any tribulation time EVER in history. So why now would He change His pattern of doing things. How did we suddenly become more special then all His saints through out history? The disciples were all tortured, beaten, flogged, rodded(this is where they beat the bottom of your feet till your ankles break), shipwrecked, etc. and then each one was violently and brutally murdered(except for John) Paul was beheaded, Kefa(Peter)crucified upside down, others were filleted alive, etc. And we are more special then them that we suddenly get to be spared? Sorry Omega that is not how it works, even Yeshua said the servant is not greater than His Master, and Yeshua went through the worst of it. Omega, we will go through tribulation, we will suffer for Yeshua, and we should be thankful that He would find us worthy to suffer for His name sake. Shalom

No one has ever been raptured? Wasn't Enoch???

Was not Lot removed before the wrath of God?

Wasn't Rahab removed before the wrath of God??

You call Jesus "Yeshua"...look to the Jewish marriage. It is all over the Old Testament. Jesus is coming for His bride. Why do you think Matthew 25 starts with the parable of the ten virgins??

Matthew 25 1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Remember, this is just a continuation from Matthew 24. Jesus is comparing the rapture to the Jewish wedding. He is clearly the bridegroom. We are the bride. The wise virgins are faithful believers. The foolish are pseudo-Christians who will miss the rapture. Notice they know the groom and want in but He does not know them.

I just think if folks would just take time and study the Old Testament it outlines all of this.

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[Avinu]

No one has ever been raptured? Wasn't Enoch???

Was not Lot removed before the wrath of God?

Wasn't Rahab removed before the wrath of God??

You call Jesus "Yeshua"...look to the Jewish marriage. It is all over the Old Testament. Jesus is coming for His bride. Why do you think Matthew 25 starts with the parable of the ten virgins??

Was Enoch going through a tribulation? No he was so righteous that Yah decided to take him home.

Was Lot raptured? No he left the city. Was Rahab raptured, no she was protected in the middle of the attack.

Yeshua is Jesus real name in hebrew. My friend, you are claiming things in the OT to be whatever you want it to be. You insist on believing these lies. The verses about Israel and the tribes and stuff like that, that you use has NOTHING to do with rapture or even the second coming. I'm hebrew and I'm sorry but you have no knowledge of Israel at all, or it's past. Please stop listening to your pastor or whoever you're listening to. Because me and others have disproved every single one of your claims. You're actually the first person I've ever seen try to use OT to prove rapture. I've studied prophecy for over 20 yrs. my friend, and I know I don't have it all figured out, but there will never be a pre-rapture. What are you going to do when the 7 yr. covenant has started and you're still here. Are you going to lose faith, or will you realize that you're going to have to be here and still serve Yah?

 

[A-Omega]

Was Enoch going through a tribulation? No he was so righteous that Yah decided to take him home.

Was Lot raptured? No he left the city. Was Rahab raptured, no she was protected in the middle of the attack.

Yeshua is Jesus real name in hebrew. My friend, you are claiming things in the OT to be whatever you want it to be. You insist on believing these lies. The verses about Israel and the tribes and stuff like that, that you use has NOTHING to do with rapture or even the second coming. I'm hebrew and I'm sorry but you have no knowledge of Israel at all, or it's past. Please stop listening to your pastor or whoever you're listening to. Because me and others have disproved every single one of your claims. You're actually the first person I've ever seen try to use OT to prove rapture. I've studied prophecy for over 20 yrs. my friend, and I know I don't have it all figured out, but there will never be a pre-rapture. What are you going to do when the 7 yr. covenant has started and you're still here. Are you going to lose faith, or will you realize that you're going to have to be here and still serve Yah?

Ha ha. That was pretty funny. All this talk of listening to someone and being scared is silly. I am only quoting the Bible and nothing else. What exactly have you disproved? And again, what is your interpretation of the passage I quote from Isaiah 26? You still have not provided it.

 

[Avinu]

Ha ha. That was pretty funny. All this talk of listening to someone and being scared is silly. I am only quoting the Bible and nothing else. What exactly have you disproved? And again, what is your interpretation of the passage I quote from Isaiah 26? You still have not provided it.

What is funny? Anyone can quote the Bible and declare it to say what THEY want it to say. False preachers do it all the time. You haven't seen what has been disproved because your eyes are blinded to what YOU want to believe. I've noticed you have avoided many of my questions and statements.

As for Isaiah, 26, it talks about Yah's coming salvation and judgement. You still haven't answered me on Zech. 14:1-4, why are you avoiding it?

So explain why Rev. 20:4-5 to paraphrase, says that those who are beheaded in the tribulation will rule and reign with Messiah a thousand yrs. and they are a part of the FIRST RESSURECTION. Explain how they could be a part of the first ressurection if that already happened with the rapture. You can't have two first ressurections.

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

The Rapture is not biblical.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Rapture is not biblical.

rapture comes from the latin word which means to be "caught up" Paul says we all will be "caught up " or raptured, and meet the lord in the sky.

So yes the rapture is biblical. what is debatable is when it will happen.

 

[peterT]

Christians are supernaturally protected during the Great Tribulation??
You cannot say the saints are "killed but then protected." It's just a complete contradiction.

No that’s not sound doctrine A-Omega, it’s not a complete contradiction.

The two end time witnesses are supernaturally protected during the Great Tribulation, then at the end of their witness they die as martyrs.

Also the people of God who had the seal of God in their foreheads are supernaturally protected from the locusts and yet many die as witnesses during the Great Tribulation

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Also the in Rv12 the woman fled into the wilderness were supernaturally God supplies all her food for 3 ½ years.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Now let’s go back in time.

Paul got bit by a snake and God supernaturally protected him and yet he died as a martyr.

And peter supernaturally protected by God was let out of jail and yet died as a martyr.

God is in the business of supernaturally protection and yet you can still die as a witness.

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

rapture comes from the latin word which means to be "caught up" Paul says we all will be "caught up " or raptured, and meet the lord in the sky.

So yes the rapture is biblical. what is debatable is when it will happen.

You mean the General Resurrection right?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You mean the General Resurrection right?

You said there was no rapture. I showed you there was one. When it happens is debatable. but that was not why I commented on your post.

 

[A-Omega]

What is funny? Anyone can quote the Bible and declare it to say what THEY want it to say. False preachers do it all the time. You haven't seen what has been disproved because your eyes are blinded to what YOU want to believe. I've noticed you have avoided many of my questions and statements.

I am only addressing your actual arguments that involve Bible scripture. You on the other hand are not responding to the verses and arguments I put forth. Saying "quit listening to your preacher man!" is not an argument. It's an irrelevant and juvenile remark.

As for Isaiah, 26, it talks about Yah's coming salvation and judgement.

What does "Yah's coming salvation" even mean? How does it relate to what the text is saying? Is that passage prophetic or speaking to a past judgment? What is the judgment?

You still haven't answered me on Zech. 14:1-4, why are you avoiding it?

Believe me, I am not avoiding anything.


Zechariah 14: 1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

The Day of The Lord is not a single event, nor is it one day. As I have said repeatedly, it is the outpouring of God's wrath on the heathen nations as seen from the 6th Seal to the 7th vial. And this verse describes it as such. Remember in chapter 13 the Lord describes the persecution and refining of 1/3 of Israel. So in 14 God is now moving onto the promises of the Day of The Lord. He will defeat all the nations of the world, Israel will be restored, the Messiah will return and establish the Messianic kingdom out of Jerusalem. This is why the Day of the Lord is said to be waged for the "controversy of Zion." As the article I linked to in this thread states, the main purpose of the Day of The Lord is for God to defend Israel, reconcile it and restore it.

So explain why Rev. 20:4-5 to paraphrase, says that those who are beheaded in the tribulation will rule and reign with Messiah a thousand yrs. and they are a part of the FIRST RESSURECTION. Explain how they could be a part of the first ressurection if that already happened with the rapture. You can't have two first ressurections.

Why not? You do realize that in the feasts created by The Lord, the "Last Trump" is not the final trump blown right? The final trumpet blown is the "Great Trump" which is blown at Yom Kippur. The first resurrection is just an appelation. And remember, the Rapture is a singular event. It is a gathering of the church to Jesus to dwell in Heaven together. This event in Rev 20 is limited to just those who were beheaded by the Antichrist. So no matter how you slice it, the "first resurrection" is a very limited event. Clearly there will be other Christians who died who were not martyred who will be in the Millenial Kingdom so basic logic makes it clear that there are indeed other resurrections even though the one 1,000 years later is called the "second." It's just a title.

 

[peterT]

Was not Lot removed before the wrath of God?

.

All is proves with Lot is that the Wrath won’t touch us if we listen to the lords warnings like Lot did.

It does not show a pre-trib coming

There is no event/resurrection/rapture that take place in the Bible before the tribulation, you’re just making it up.

 

[Avinu]

I am only addressing your actual arguments that involve Bible scripture. You on the other hand are not responding to the verses and arguments I put forth. Saying "quit listening to your preacher man!" is not an argument. It's an irrelevant and juvenile remark.

I'm sorry but you taking a verse you choose to pick and declaring it to mean what you say it means does not make it truth. The only thing juvenile is you still believing in a rapture that only exists in your mind.

The Day of The Lord is not a single event, nor is it one day. As I have said repeatedly, it is the outpouring of God's wrath on the heathen nations as seen from the 6th Seal to the 7th vial. And this verse describes it as such. Remember in chapter 13 the Lord describes the persecution and refining of 1/3 of Israel. So in 14 God is now moving onto the promises of the Day of The Lord. He will defeat all the nations of the world, Israel will be restored, the Messiah will return and establish the Messianic kingdom out of Jerusalem. This is why the Day of the Lord is said to be waged for the "controversy of Zion." As the article I linked to in this thread states, the main purpose of the Day of The Lord is for God to defend Israel, reconcile it and restore it.

Zech. 14:1-4 shows the day of the Lord is at the end of tribulation, you said it will be before that, so get your story right.

Why not? You do realize that in the feasts created by The Lord, the "Last Trump" is not the final trump blown right? The final trumpet blown is the "Great Trump" which is blown at Yom Kippur. The first resurrection is just an appelation. And remember, the Rapture is a singular event. It is a gathering of the church to Jesus to dwell in Heaven together. This event in Rev 20 is limited to just those who were beheaded by the Antichrist. So no matter how you slice it, the "first resurrection" is a very limited event. Clearly there will be other Christians who died who were not martyred who will be in the Millenial Kingdom so basic logic makes it clear that there are indeed other resurrections even though the one 1,000 years later is called the "second." It's just a title.

Here once again you make claims that are not Biblical. So the "last trumpet" isn't really the last trump, right?

THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IN THAT VERSE IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST). SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. There is not two last trumpets, do you realize how rediculous that sounds?

So once again, you're twisting scripture to fit your belief. As for your explanation for Rev. 20:4-5, show me where it says it is limited to just those beheaded, it says THEY(meaning besides them) will be a part of the FIRST RESSURECTION. What exactly does 'limited event' mean in your mind? Stop twisting God's Word to your delusion. These are lies that you speak. You need to stop listening to Jack Van Impe and John Hagee.

And yes after the 1000 yrs. there will be the second ressurection of those who will be cast in to hell, just as it says in Rev.20:11-15. Please leave God's Word alone, and stop adding and taking from it, because you are walking dangerous ground my friend, and you won't like what YAH has to say about when you stand before Him.