Aristocat,
Aristocat = black, Me = purple
No need for your soul to be wrenched! haha I did go back and read your post in its entirety. -- Thank you very much.
I guess I'm not entirely understanding what you were saying. To me it seemed like you were saying that the traditional Gospel (involving Christ's sacrifice and resurrection) is what saved people. -- What I mean: salvation by faith which is God's free gift, as oppose to salvation by works of the Law, is what saves people. So, it is faith which saves from the guilty verdict of condemnation (everlasting separation from God), of which we are naturally children of the rebellion, and thus, children of wrath. Without faith being the catalist of hope, we are lost, even by the works of the Law. Yes, the Gospel of the Good News, by hearing and believeing its words, is what saves us through faith, and not works.
Only it seemed like you were saying that they first had to obey the sacrifices in order to be saved by Christ when the Gospel came to fruition so-to-speak. That was the part I was skeptical about. And I provided what I believed to be scriptural evidence against that point. -- Yes. Obedience to the Law was not only commanded of them by God, but by that obedience (fulfilling the rules and ordinances contained in the Law) and by trusting in the promises of that Covenant, they who followed the Law as a means of following God, did see thier Deliverer. The who did not follow the Law, had no sacrifice and thus, no forgivness of thier rebellion. They had their works of the Law as thier own righteousness, and if they failed to abide by the Law, they then remained children of the rebellion.
Also what's the difference between being forgiven and being justified? -- Forgiven = I will not remember (hold against) your offense towards Me. Justified = not held guilty. Specifically, not found guilty of offence towards God and worthy of an adverse sentencing. Through sacrifice they were forgiven their sins and remained obedeint to the Law, but that never released them of God's verdict of them being guity of offense. Because the Law never justified them of this guilt, they went to Hades (the realm of the dead). This is why it is said that under the Law, no one is found innocent (KJV: rightous). But, under faith, we are held blameless, seeing that there is no law to acknowledge offense. May I add for a point of interest, that is why we of faith cannot sin (offend), because, there is no Law to hold us guilty of offense and thus, worthy of condemnation (there is no condemnation in those of faith).
Is one not justified when they are forgiven? -- one can be forgiven, but Justice demands the penality be paid. Under the Law, the penality was condemnation. But praised be Jah, that penality was paid by Christ and through Him, we are justified (found blamless) in Him, just as they in Abraham's Bosom rceived justification. From the top of my spirtual voice, I sing praises to God, 'I am no longer guilty of rebellion, but have been justified from the guilty verdict which naturally awaits all.' No longer are we naturally children of the rebellion who are destined for wrath, but we stand before God spotless.
What takes place in Sheol? -- For those of faith, the Jewish saints and Gentile saints, nothing. But for those who are not of faith, the place where they await the Great White Throne sentencing. We of faith are not guilty of offense and Jesus has delivered those who are Jewish saints from it. So, it is not a place for saints, but those still held guilty of offense.
Is it a place of torment? -- No, just a place for the dead (as oppose to those who are alive in Christ) to await their final sentencing. On the other hand, Hell WILL BE a place enveloped in God's heated passion (wrath). Hell will be a place full of God's wrath, and that is, my brother, the fire of His anger. There will be no peace, no intermission, no day, or night, just constantly under God's wrath which reaches even to the floors of corruption.
And if everyone went to Sheol to be tormented before Christ's death and resurrection, then how do we account for Samuel being reluctant to be disturbed by Saul when he was consulted? -- They who were obedient to the Law went to Abraham's Bosom which was separated by a gulf. But, Paradise for the faithful is no longer in Hades, seeing that we, all of faith, are no longer held guilty. We can assume from Scripture that Samuel was before the LORD, and thus, went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise).
1 Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
Some of the things which make me confused by what is claimed are the beliefs I already hold. For instance,
1. Sheol is the place of those who are both physically and spiritually dead. -- Now it is, but before there was a place called Abraham's Bosom in Hades for the righteous dead. 'Spiritually dead' only in the sense that they do/did not have Live in them. Not in the sense of complete non-existance, seeing that Jesus went their to proclaim the Good News of salvation to those in Paradise which happened to be in Hades. Also note: if you will, do a word search in the Old Testament for the words Hades, Sheol, grave, and you will see that there is still activity even on the other side of Abraham's Bosom, just as it was activity in the Lazarus story.
2. Sheol is a place of torment based on Luke 16:23-24. Luke 16:28 "for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." The Hebrew word that would have been used in the name of this place would've been Sheol - not hell. So that man is being tormented in Sheol. -- We can assume, as we did with Samuel, that he was in the part of Hades where God's wrath was and by knowing that God's wrath is no upon those who are righteous but upon the wicked, then we can say that he was not in Paradise as Lazarus. Just remember that there was a gulf between those in Paradise and those under God's wrath.
3. What is claimed is that everyone before Christ's apparent emergence in this world went to Sheol (even those who were called righteous; i.e. those who had obtained imparted righteousness). So the claim is that God sent the righteous to a place of torment. Why would he do that if they were righteous in his eyes already? The righteous live by faith and are spiritually alive, right? -- Please see aboves statements.
4. Sheol is a place that is contrasted with Abraham's Bosom. Sheol is a place of punishment and Abraham's Bosom is a place of rest. Luke 16:23, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
5. On another point Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are called alive (spiritually alive) and not dead. Mark 12:26-27 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. [...]" --- Because they were resurrected with the Christ from the dead, to live forevermore with Him.
So what we have is that God calls Abraham righteous and he forgives David's sins. Then he sends them to a place of torment where they are tormented in agonizing flames. And at the same time we have Samuel disliking the fact that he was called forth from such a place. Then we have paradise being called Abraham's Bosom when Abraham is being tormented in Sheol. On top of that we have Jesus contrasting Sheol with Abraham's Bosom before his death and resurrection and giving examples of the types of people we might find in each. Then God calling Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [spiritually] alive but all those people still going to a place of the spiritually dead.
I think the main point we differ on is that perhaps you think that everyone was effectively unsaved (even though they would be later) before Christ's manifest sacrifice and resurrection --- No. As long as it is understood that all was found guilty under the Law, but that those abiding by the Law did not go to the other side of Hades. And that they were justified from that guilty verdict by their faith in the One who came to them to reverse that sentencing. I repeat, God's wrath was/is not upon the righteous, but upon the wicked.
while I believe that it was fundamentally retroactive in its effects (i.e. God promising to pay his Son's life for everyone else's but in the mean time buying their lives "on credit" only later to pay his Son when the time for collection came). Of course it could work quite differently than that, but I believe that everyone who was righteous before Christ's death and resurrection rested after death and were considered spiritually alive.