hi bud
yup. i'm trying to see both sides as well.
God is both Sovereign and Merciful.
no EG, i'm not trying to actually say anything about
God, i was just trying to examine our (my) logic in this.
see, even if we do it like this:
"are we foolish enough to think God would call abraham if he KNEW he would reject him."
....it STILL turns out to be God planning everything based on who summons up faith, right?
if we must force this to fit, (which you can tell i am less and less willing to do personally, though the discussion is a very good one) it really does come down to:
God has to look into His Own Plan....and see
who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation...(let's leave out the issue of God outside of time for now...i don't mean to stir up mental illustrations of linear time for God etc)
if this is the case - God has to look into His Own Plan....and see
who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation, the argument we are making ends up being exactly like predestination that we are struggling against on the other side - because:
IF He had to look into His Own Plan first to see who would accept Him; it means He went ahead ANYWAY and allowed men to be born whom HE KNEW would reject Him (because we KNOW there have been and will be many who did and do)!
so i see no difference!
what am i missing?
??
here we have Him ordering EVERYTHING
based on who will believe (which is the first step to
obeying in the 100% freewill camp, right?)
so, we have Him doing everything based on who has/receives/summons FAITH - BEFORE they were ever born!
but we have to agree the scriptures of our Bible say faith itself is gift from God, EG.
what do we do with that?
i knew i overworked that post
i didn't literally mean righteous, i meant they obeyed! which means they had faith without Him giving it to them! and He then acted accordingly. it's not adding up. not for me so far.
well then, when they/we get to heaven, will we not have things to boast about?
"people in place he knew would fulfill his plan"
it's almost as if we will be getting praise from HIM for making His Plan work!!!
God forbid!
EG - it looks like in many places He [
forced - buzzword, i don't want to use it] ordained that ppl would do things,
whether they knew it or not. example, Caiaphas.
John 11
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him, 46but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51
He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.
Caiaphas wasn't for The Lord, EG. he was against Him.
no EG....i'm not making (forcing) anything to match if i don't have to.
i'm kinda moving away from that in this particular area because of the dangers involved at both extremes.
not moving away from the discussion, but rather from saying
it is either A or B.
for now anyway.
so i see both sides....am trying to anyways, okay?
yes, God did choose Israel.
and of course He makes no mistakes.
but Who is really the Ultimate ISRAEL?
i don't want a derailment EG - just saying there's a lot to this.
Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Matthew 2
The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod.
This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
again, i know EG. i overworked it, trying to highlight what the implications REALLY are.
"Thus
he had to chose them
based on this"
??
see what i mean?
~
love, from the twilight
zone on this one right now....