Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)
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Q
i have christian beliefs i believe in the trinity i believe also in saints .
like the st chrostoher the protector of travelers and st nicolis the protector of kids .
who has st christopher ring or neckless who has kissed the ring so many times who has spoke in ther mind when doing this in the hope they can hear you . i have and i have befor i have read any bible.
like also say that we pray to god to protect our loved ones and i would like to point out that god will send the saints .
oh when the saints go marching in
and also i would like to say that the saints will watch over and protect and they will offer prayer and so if we are speaking like saying something like i dont know if you can hear me st nicolis can you watch over my kids is that is offering st christopher the chance to say prayer ( so is this using st christopher as a mediator ) for you so off course st christopher can hear you because he is protecting you everyday.
like the st chrostoher the protector of travelers and st nicolis the protector of kids .
who has st christopher ring or neckless who has kissed the ring so many times who has spoke in ther mind when doing this in the hope they can hear you . i have and i have befor i have read any bible.
like also say that we pray to god to protect our loved ones and i would like to point out that god will send the saints .
oh when the saints go marching in
and also i would like to say that the saints will watch over and protect and they will offer prayer and so if we are speaking like saying something like i dont know if you can hear me st nicolis can you watch over my kids is that is offering st christopher the chance to say prayer ( so is this using st christopher as a mediator ) for you so off course st christopher can hear you because he is protecting you everyday.
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B
Greetings to all,
I have heard this type of discourse in many forums and chats. Its like King Solomon said, nothing new under the sun. Mary and Jesus mother is not inherently a heresy unto itself. Its a fact. Jesus called Mary His mother. That said She has no special place in correct theology other than being willing and not testing God when she received His word.
There is a simple way to look at this. IF, you believe Mary is more than the physical mother of Jesus then put it to a test.
The Roman Church calls Mary a "co-redeemer" of co-redemtrix" due to her role as Jesus' mother. If not for her we would not have Jesus. So let's test it.
Mary co-redeemer. If not for Mary's father and mother having her she could not have been Jesus' mom. They would have to be co-redeemers. If not for the harlot Rahab aiding the spies of Israel one of Jesus early ancestors would have been killed so the harlot Rahab is a co-redeemer. Had Abram not done as God commanded and stayed home Israel would not be a nation therefore, no Jews and no Jesus. Abram would be a co-redeemer. Had Adam not bitten the fruit Eve gave him Mankind would not have been kicked out of the garden. Adam would be a co-redeemer.
Here is the one that really brings it home for me. If Satan had not tempted Eve in the first place there never would have been a need for Jesus to become flesh. Satan would have to be a co-redeemer. Anyone want to make that claim? If you hold Mary as a co-redeem then you must hold any person that believes in and follows Jesus and all within His blood line and even the Devil himself as a co-redeemer.
The simple truth is Jesus is the way the truth and the life and none come to the Father EXCEPT through Him. When you add anyone else to the mix you make that Scripture a lie. Jesus becomes A way, A truth and A life and all that come to the Father do so in their own way.
It just doesn't work. Jesus made an absolute statement of absolute truth. He left no room for any other interpretation. If you place any tradition held by any Church, be they Roman, Schismatic, or Reformed, and it provides for interpretation that allows us to go around that absolute statement then either the tratition is wrong or Jesus is a liar.
Agree or disagree its your choice but remember, Path, Rock, Thorns or Fertile Soil, we will all give account for our lives. On that day, only the absolute truth will be uttered and heard.
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
I have heard this type of discourse in many forums and chats. Its like King Solomon said, nothing new under the sun. Mary and Jesus mother is not inherently a heresy unto itself. Its a fact. Jesus called Mary His mother. That said She has no special place in correct theology other than being willing and not testing God when she received His word.
There is a simple way to look at this. IF, you believe Mary is more than the physical mother of Jesus then put it to a test.
The Roman Church calls Mary a "co-redeemer" of co-redemtrix" due to her role as Jesus' mother. If not for her we would not have Jesus. So let's test it.
Mary co-redeemer. If not for Mary's father and mother having her she could not have been Jesus' mom. They would have to be co-redeemers. If not for the harlot Rahab aiding the spies of Israel one of Jesus early ancestors would have been killed so the harlot Rahab is a co-redeemer. Had Abram not done as God commanded and stayed home Israel would not be a nation therefore, no Jews and no Jesus. Abram would be a co-redeemer. Had Adam not bitten the fruit Eve gave him Mankind would not have been kicked out of the garden. Adam would be a co-redeemer.
Here is the one that really brings it home for me. If Satan had not tempted Eve in the first place there never would have been a need for Jesus to become flesh. Satan would have to be a co-redeemer. Anyone want to make that claim? If you hold Mary as a co-redeem then you must hold any person that believes in and follows Jesus and all within His blood line and even the Devil himself as a co-redeemer.
The simple truth is Jesus is the way the truth and the life and none come to the Father EXCEPT through Him. When you add anyone else to the mix you make that Scripture a lie. Jesus becomes A way, A truth and A life and all that come to the Father do so in their own way.
It just doesn't work. Jesus made an absolute statement of absolute truth. He left no room for any other interpretation. If you place any tradition held by any Church, be they Roman, Schismatic, or Reformed, and it provides for interpretation that allows us to go around that absolute statement then either the tratition is wrong or Jesus is a liar.
Agree or disagree its your choice but remember, Path, Rock, Thorns or Fertile Soil, we will all give account for our lives. On that day, only the absolute truth will be uttered and heard.
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
The word 'theology' itself taints this into something.
People like to believe there are set out rules that we have to abide by to gain a place in heaven.
But honouring Jesus' mother is supposed to be more of a mark of simple respect. Not 'right theology' or 'wrong theology', just simple, human respect and admiration.
For what reason? Because it is merited!
It's good to respect and admire those who are morally worthy of respect and admiration! She was the mother of Jesus, the son of God.
Sadly it may get turned into something one has to do to be 'enough' to 'get in'.
It's the thought process of the world.
'Try my best and put all my efforts in so I can get up and above others and be somebody in the end'.
There's no difference to the mindset of vicious businessmen. 'Play the game so I can get on top'.
Question: If 'places', as people see it, do exist in heaven, who would give theirs up for someone else?
Another question: Is the faith you have directed towards 'getting a place', and believing that your faith 'gets you a place'? Or is it directed towards cultivating the peace, love, and joy that makes you the Kingdom of God, for compassion, peace, love and joy's own sake?
A lot of questions like these are what I asked myself.
Is the hail Mary, for anyone who uses it, a mark of respect for Jesus mother? Or a prerequisite check box to get a place in heaven?
Only the person who does it can answer that question for themselves.
So I won't say it's wrong outright. The heart of someone else isn't shown to me.
People like to believe there are set out rules that we have to abide by to gain a place in heaven.
But honouring Jesus' mother is supposed to be more of a mark of simple respect. Not 'right theology' or 'wrong theology', just simple, human respect and admiration.
For what reason? Because it is merited!
It's good to respect and admire those who are morally worthy of respect and admiration! She was the mother of Jesus, the son of God.
Sadly it may get turned into something one has to do to be 'enough' to 'get in'.
It's the thought process of the world.
'Try my best and put all my efforts in so I can get up and above others and be somebody in the end'.
There's no difference to the mindset of vicious businessmen. 'Play the game so I can get on top'.
Question: If 'places', as people see it, do exist in heaven, who would give theirs up for someone else?
Another question: Is the faith you have directed towards 'getting a place', and believing that your faith 'gets you a place'? Or is it directed towards cultivating the peace, love, and joy that makes you the Kingdom of God, for compassion, peace, love and joy's own sake?
A lot of questions like these are what I asked myself.
Is the hail Mary, for anyone who uses it, a mark of respect for Jesus mother? Or a prerequisite check box to get a place in heaven?
Only the person who does it can answer that question for themselves.
So I won't say it's wrong outright. The heart of someone else isn't shown to me.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.”515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.”516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.
To love God above all does not mean to not Love anyone else, this would violate the Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.”515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.”516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.
To love God above all does not mean to not Love anyone else, this would violate the Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
K
This is word for word what I learned as a child. Devotion for Mary, adoration for Jesus, Father and Holy Spirit. In my many years in the Cath Church, I did not hear one sermon, or see one lesson in school or CCD classes, or see one one attempt of any kind to clarify this for the many people who prayed to Mary incessantly, even during communion. While this is the official teaching, do most Catholics know this is the official teaching? I saw many who did not act like it. Has this changed any in the last 30 years?
The teachings never change, but much has change in the church as to the way they teach. Even the way we celebrate Mass has change the way some things are said in english to be more in par with all other languages.
To give you an idea here is a link on the way catholic teaching on our bodies today.
Link ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0-wXODqTsU <---
To give you an idea here is a link on the way catholic teaching on our bodies today.
Link ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0-wXODqTsU <---
The incessant references to what some man said about God inhabits these liturgical religions.
Notice how it is what some authority said instead of what the Bible says.
See the difference between the living Word and dogmas.
Notice the difference between scripture and tradition.
Look and see the references given in scripture as opposed to the references harkened back to by those that follow traditions.
It's always some later synod, or "bishop" that they reference.
Instead of the actual Word.
Look it up in the Bible, if it cannot be found there it is errant; and a wrongly divided interpretation of scripture.
Religion is Satan's last bulwark against the soul that seeks God.
Only in God's own Words will you find Him.
Notice how it is what some authority said instead of what the Bible says.
See the difference between the living Word and dogmas.
Notice the difference between scripture and tradition.
Look and see the references given in scripture as opposed to the references harkened back to by those that follow traditions.
It's always some later synod, or "bishop" that they reference.
Instead of the actual Word.
Look it up in the Bible, if it cannot be found there it is errant; and a wrongly divided interpretation of scripture.
Religion is Satan's last bulwark against the soul that seeks God.
Only in God's own Words will you find Him.
That's quite easy Geometar.
1) Mary as the 'Queen of Heaven'.
2) Praying to saints. (The Buddists do this, only the saints are their ancestry).
3) The supplanting of the Canon with the doctrines of the 'Holy Church Fathers".
I have already shown you chapter and verse in our previous discourses and you answered me with writings of your most holy church fathers.
1) Mary as the 'Queen of Heaven'.
2) Praying to saints. (The Buddists do this, only the saints are their ancestry).
3) The supplanting of the Canon with the doctrines of the 'Holy Church Fathers".
I have already shown you chapter and verse in our previous discourses and you answered me with writings of your most holy church fathers.
1)Mary as Queen of Heavens.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1)
Mary here is wearing a Crown of Twelve Stars. As we saw in Joseph’s dream, the stars are a symbol of Israel. Mary is wearing the Crown of Israel. However, the New Israel is the people of the Church, the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ says:
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." (John 18:36)
The kingdom of New Israel is the kingdom of heaven. Thus, Mary is here presented as wearing the Crown of New Israel- she is the Queen of Heaven.
Another important fact is that Jesus is a king after the order of David- he is a Davidic king. Who were the queens of Davidic kings? Interestingly, it was not their wives. It was their mother. Consider this passage:
Say to the king and the queen mother: "Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head." (Jeremiah 13:18)
ICXC NIKA
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1)
Mary here is wearing a Crown of Twelve Stars. As we saw in Joseph’s dream, the stars are a symbol of Israel. Mary is wearing the Crown of Israel. However, the New Israel is the people of the Church, the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ says:
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." (John 18:36)
The kingdom of New Israel is the kingdom of heaven. Thus, Mary is here presented as wearing the Crown of New Israel- she is the Queen of Heaven.
Another important fact is that Jesus is a king after the order of David- he is a Davidic king. Who were the queens of Davidic kings? Interestingly, it was not their wives. It was their mother. Consider this passage:
Say to the king and the queen mother: "Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head." (Jeremiah 13:18)
ICXC NIKA
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3) The supplanting of the Canon with the doctrines of the 'Holy Church Fathers".
Canons of the Church are written from the holy fathers,of course from them who took their attend at Ecumenical Councils.It is interesting that those Canons never was changed,NOR anyone of the holy fathers ever try to change them,but just confirmation in their writings.Changing of any of Canon will be changing of Faith!
Your question coming from your own opinion on this question,or some other writings,where Orthodox Church was false prosecuted for changing of Canons.
Canons of the Church are written from the holy fathers,of course from them who took their attend at Ecumenical Councils.It is interesting that those Canons never was changed,NOR anyone of the holy fathers ever try to change them,but just confirmation in their writings.Changing of any of Canon will be changing of Faith!
Your question coming from your own opinion on this question,or some other writings,where Orthodox Church was false prosecuted for changing of Canons.
The woman in Rev. is NOT Mary.
Everyone who studies the bible knows that.
Was Mary the mother of the twelve tribes of Israel? - NO.
What ONE tribe was Mary from?
You force her into your own revelation.
You say: Mary is the woman wearing the crown.
This is utterly a misreading.
You are logically mistaken.
You insert her into the prophecy and say "therefore we know".
Do not you see this?
Don't you see that she couldn't possibly be that woman spoken of in Revelations 12:1 because she is not the mother of the 12 tribes of Israel
or the mother of the church?
Don't you see that?
Sarah was the mother of Isaac.
Plus, the reference to Jeremiah is totally taken out of context.
Read it with the verses before and after to get the meaning of the prophecy:
15 Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the Lord hath spoken.
16 Give glory to the Lord your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.
17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the Lord's flock is carried away captive.
18 Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.
19 The cities of the south shall be shut up, and none shall open them: Judah shall be carried away captive all of it, it shall be wholly carried away captive.
20 Lift up your eyes, and behold them that come from the north: where is the flock that was given thee, thy beautiful flock?
21 What wilt thou say when he shall punish thee? for thou hast taught them to be captains, and as chief over thee: shall not sorrows take thee, as a woman in travail?
These verses and this section of prophecy are addressing the falling of a haughty king and queen and people who were under them.
Mary, the mother of Jesus was not proud, nor was Joseph(her king)....nor was Jesus her Son.
Everyone who studies the bible knows that.
Was Mary the mother of the twelve tribes of Israel? - NO.
What ONE tribe was Mary from?
You force her into your own revelation.
You say: Mary is the woman wearing the crown.
This is utterly a misreading.
You are logically mistaken.
You insert her into the prophecy and say "therefore we know".
Do not you see this?
Don't you see that she couldn't possibly be that woman spoken of in Revelations 12:1 because she is not the mother of the 12 tribes of Israel
or the mother of the church?
Don't you see that?
Sarah was the mother of Isaac.
Plus, the reference to Jeremiah is totally taken out of context.
Read it with the verses before and after to get the meaning of the prophecy:
15 Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the Lord hath spoken.
16 Give glory to the Lord your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.
17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the Lord's flock is carried away captive.
18 Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.
19 The cities of the south shall be shut up, and none shall open them: Judah shall be carried away captive all of it, it shall be wholly carried away captive.
20 Lift up your eyes, and behold them that come from the north: where is the flock that was given thee, thy beautiful flock?
21 What wilt thou say when he shall punish thee? for thou hast taught them to be captains, and as chief over thee: shall not sorrows take thee, as a woman in travail?
These verses and this section of prophecy are addressing the falling of a haughty king and queen and people who were under them.
Mary, the mother of Jesus was not proud, nor was Joseph(her king)....nor was Jesus her Son.