The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[cfultz3]

yes my friend. but it is still not my work. The key word as I tried to show you is reward. We work to earn a reward. Salvation is not a reward, it is a gift. thus when it comes to salvation, it is not a work. because I am not earning the gift. i am receiving it.

this is different say from those who say we must work.

If I get baptized to get saved, or do any other religious ceremony or tradition. I am doing a work, to earn a wage, that wage is salvation.

if I try to do Gods commands to be saved, I am not doing them to recieve a gift. I am doing them to earn a wage, which is salvation.

if I try not to sin so I do not lose my salvation. I am doing it to earn a wage, not receive a gift. my wage is salvation.

you see in all the above, I can take credit. because it is the work I am performing for which my salvation is based on, thus I have earned the right to be saved, or added to the work of God my own works to help save myself.

but when it comes to freely recieving a gift from someone, I am not working to earn it, I just trust what he gives me has value, thus I chose to receive it.

lol...even that choice is an action (work) performed by you.

I am laughing only because it seems we are saying the same thing but that little twist of meaning we both are placing on the word 'work' is keeping us from saying the same thing here.

Anyhow, I am glad you chose to receive (chose to believe and) that free gift which none of us can earn

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lol...even that choice is an action (work) performed by you.

I am laughing only because it seems we are saying the same thing but that little twist of meaning we both are placing on the word 'work' is keeping us from saying the same thing here.

Anyhow, I am glad you chose to receive (chose to believe and) that free gift which none of us can earn

lol. I am just trying to show you that faith in christ is not a work in the sense of we are earning something. That is the very argument which I believe caused calvin to decry faith by free will as a means to salvation. Faith is not our work, it is Gods work, because he did everything that we needed in order to even be able to trust him. Without his work. we would have nothing to trust in, and we would not be having this discussion.. lol

which is why I always say, Calvanists are my brothers and sisters in Christ. they just believe we come to the point of repentance and faith differently. They teach the SAME repentnance and faith as we do though, thus they have the same salvation!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look at it this way.

I did not save myself because I had faith in God

God saved me because I did not reject his gift in unbelief. (because I had faith in him)

 

[cfultz3]

lol. I am just trying to show you that faith in christ is not a work in the sense of we are earning something. Agreed. I, and it seems you also, am saying that we choose that faith and by which, God Himself will led us home.

That is the very argument which I believe caused calvin to decry faith by free will as a means to salvation. Faith is not our work, it is Gods work, -- but if God gave us faith, then is that faith really our faith or God's faith? Do we not willfully trust Him and by which faith, He shows us that the confidence we have placed in Him is not a lost cause?

because he did everything that we needed in order to even be able to trust him. Agreed, He set the plan in motion on how to obtain salvation through Christ: to believe. So that we no longer trust the Law for our righteousness (that which obtains our salvation = works of the Law)

Without his work. we would have nothing to trust in, and we would not be having this discussion.. lol -- Without His work (faith), we would still have the Law which would still send us to Hades But thank God that we no longer have the Law for our righteousness and still face Hades until Jesus would die to our justification. That would only kill Him the second time.

which is why I always say, Calvanists are my brothers and sisters in Christ. they just believe we come to the point of repentance and faith differently. They teach the SAME repentnance and faith as we do though -- I was just thinking that today myself, about coming to salvation at different points (freewill and ?)

.............

 

[tribesman]

agreed

Disagree. It does not say they can't respond. If they could not respond. they could not reject. As I said, if I do not know what it is I am not willing to receive, I can not reject it. This is not logic at all. God can not blame someone for rejecting him, if he has not given the ability to respond and recieve, because they could not have the ability to reject if they had no clue what they were rejecting.

Wherein lies then the difference? Does the difference lie within the sinner (and his ability to receive and help himself) or in Christ alone to redeem the utterly helpless? It cannot lie in both.

Here's where the problem with prevenient grace comes in. Scripture implies that man is so corrupted by his sin that he wills not what is right before God. There's an enmity and a fruit unto death. There's no spark of goodness in man to be activated to positively respond to the God he hates.

I am saying that those who positively respond to God's call have already experienced a work of God to do so, it is not their own doing. If literally everybody had a "chance" to "receive" what God says is right then the difference must obviously lie within each and every man to either do so or not do so. However, such an idea collides with scripture.

 

[cfultz3]

Look at it this way.

I did not save myself because I had faith in God

God saved me because I did not reject his gift in unbelief. (because I had faith in him)

Then we are in agreement and will say to you:

Look at it this way.


I did not save myself because I had faith in God


God saved me because I did not reject his gift in unbelief. (because I had faith in him)

 

[cfultz3]

Then we are in agreement and will say to you:

Look at it this way.


I did not save myself because I had faith in God


God saved me because I did not reject his gift in unbelief. (because I had faith in him)

Get back in here and accept your medicine

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

We all have original sin, but it's not an excuse. Matter of factly, we chose to sin which got us the original sin originally. A lot of people make excuses like that because they feel they won't be held accountable. However, it seems kind of arrogant to me for one to cling to their sinful nature and demand God accept them in that manner; the bible has commands and God's chosen moral code believers are to follow.

You are totally free to not follow and hide behind excuses, but every knee will bow and it would be better to have tried your hardest to be free of sin then to look God in the face and tell him you blatantly blew him off.

It's honestly not that hard - the bible says " I will write my laws on their hearts -" Jesus's words but I can't remember the verse lol - once you start following God, it honestly becomes second nature and even fun to do these commands. I love going to church, loving others, I stopped the heavy drinking, partying and lusting, and life has been peachy. Just saying you love God doesn't mean your born again - it's when you take that extra mile to make yourself blameless before God that you will truly undergo a dramatic change mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

As far as homosexuality - it is regarded as sexual immorality. I've done a couple biological research projects on it to determine if homosexuality is genetic or not - science doesn't back it up biologically, but more from a psycological stand point.

However, the basis is this; we all come to a point where we must choose to follow God or to follow sin - if the bible speaks against homosexuality, then it is now a testament of your faith whether you decide to rebuke that lifestyle for God or to keep it.

There's a verse that talks about cutting off the arm if it sins because it's better that be thrown away than the entire body. I've met a few homosexuals who have completely gotten rid of it through prayer and personal perseverance. God will definitely help you along, but you have to want to let it go. It's not an easy thing by any means but no one said believing was easy. Compare giving up a sexual lifestyle to being beaten, flogged, crucified, etc as Jesus and many Christians in the passed days experienced. I say us modern Christians have it pretty easy compared to those times.

But it's up to you. This is what separates God's people from everyone else, because they are willing to go the extra mile just to please him - carrying their crosses and sacrificing if they need to.

A sheep does not prepose it's ways on it's Shepard - it simply follows.

What's this life anyway, but a dream that is soon to pass forever?

 

[cfultz3]

Then we are in agreement and will say to you:

Look at it this way.


I did not save myself because I had faith in God


God saved me because I did not reject his gift in unbelief. (because I had faith in him)

But, yes EG, I see the difference in wording. thank you.

 

[cfultz3]

We all have original sin, but it's not an excuse. Matter of factly, we chose to sin which got us the original sin originally. A lot of people make excuses like that because they feel they won't be held accountable. However, it seems kind of arrogant to me for one to cling to their sinful nature and demand God accept them in that manner; the bible has commands and God's chosen moral code believers are to follow.

You are totally free to not follow and hide behind excuses, but every knee will bow and it would be better to have tried your hardest to be free of sin then to look God in the face and tell him you blatantly blew him off.

It's honestly not that hard - the bible says " I will write my laws on their hearts -" Jesus's words but I can't remember the verse lol - once you start following God, it honestly becomes second nature and even fun to do these commands. I love going to church, loving others, I stopped the heavy drinking, partying and lusting, and life has been peachy. Just saying you love God doesn't mean your born again - it's when you take that extra mile to make yourself blameless before God that you will truly undergo a dramatic change mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

As far as homosexuality - it is regarded as sexual immorality. I've done a couple biological research projects on it to determine if homosexuality is genetic or not - science doesn't back it up biologically, but more from a psycological stand point.

However, the basis is this; we all come to a point where we must choose to follow God or to follow sin - if the bible speaks against homosexuality, then it is now a testament of your faith whether you decide to rebuke that lifestyle for God or to keep it.

There's a verse that talks about cutting off the arm if it sins because it's better that be thrown away than the entire body. I've met a few homosexuals who have completely gotten rid of it through prayer and personal perseverance. God will definitely help you along, but you have to want to let it go. It's not an easy thing by any means but no one said believing was easy. Compare giving up a sexual lifestyle to being beaten, flogged, crucified, etc as Jesus and many Christians in the passed days experienced. I say us modern Christians have it pretty easy compared to those times.

But it's up to you. This is what separates God's people from everyone else, because they are willing to go the extra mile just to please him - carrying their crosses and sacrificing if they need to.

A sheep does not prepose it's ways on it's Shepard - it simply follows.

What's this life anyway, but a dream that is soon to pass forever?

Welcome Angel, won't call you fallen angel. Very nice post which summarizes the verse: the one who suffers in the flesh, overcomes sin. To add a different thought to your examples: what is the difference between giving up being beaten and giving up a certain sin: either results in a happy ending.
Again welcome Angel.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

yes my friend. but it is still not my work. The key word as I tried to show you is reward. We work to earn a reward. Salvation is not a reward, it is a gift. thus when it comes to salvation, it is not a work. because I am not earning the gift. i am receiving it."

Salvation functions more like a reward than a gift. You aren't just given salvation by faith it seems biblically.

Matthew 7:13

" Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

The narrow gate is talking about that of Heaven; of Salvation, as the road to destruction is obvious of hell.

This parable is spoken because getting in heaven isn't as simple as people believe it to be. A lot of people have this idea that by just believing your automatically gurranteed a spot. If that was the true case, the bible would only have one book and page that says,

" Thou shalt believe and thou will have salvation."

It does not however, rather there are a multitude of books with tons of information. The bible is essentially a blue print to salvation. I was talking to my uncle about his lol, and he said all the little details of the bible does not matter, so long as your heart is the right place. I suppose, but then one must think that the bible is the very core of christianity, actually the only true testimony of God. If this is truly the words of God as I wholesomely believe it to be, then not one word of it should be overlooked.

James 2:19

" You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder."

I happened upon this verse a little while ago and it sent chills down my spine; I had finished chatting with a friend of mine who lives by the faith only philosophy.

According to the bible, even demons have faith that there is one God and believe him to be real.

Now there are also Christians who believe this too, so then what separates demons from Christians?

The deeds they do for God. James 2 goes on to explain about faith without deeds - even using Abraham as an example. Abraham's deed was actually following an established commandment by God. He was told to sacrifice his son - which sacrificing at that time was a commandment by God. However, through following this commandment, Abraham came to be called righteous because he demonstrated his faith.

God's commandments allow one to demonstrate their faith, because in following them you show that you fear God for not following what he instructs than you do anything else of the world. By going that little bit to prove oneself, you can only do so by faith which is stimulated by following the commandments.

They go hand in hand really.

This is why you see Christians whom believe in God as demons also do, yet see them doing sketchy not so righteous things. Then you see those Christians whom are totally faithful to God and do what they are commanded to do. Even the disciples weren't lolly gagging around - they did everything Jesus told them to do, because they believed and developed the faith.

Lol anyway I'm rambling now -

Point I'm making is that the bible speaks about getting to heaven and gaining salvation as a " forceful" thing - meaning there is work placed behind it in order to get there. It is not just something God gives to anyone who just believes. You literally have to work to show that you want to get to heaven - and this doesn't mean only following God's laws, for the bible says one cannot be saved by the law alone.

Faith and deeds must go hand and hand, because by faith you do deeds, by deeds you develop faith, and you do this faithfully because you wholesomely love God.

It also crushes our rebellious natures against God, which seems to be the entire point of this whole Earth ordeal.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

Welcome Angel, won't call you fallen angel. Very nice post which summarizes the verse: the one who suffers in the flesh, overcomes sin. To add a different thought to your examples: what is the difference between giving up being beaten and giving up a certain sin: either results in a happy ending.
Again welcome Angel.

Thanks for the welcome xD

I am a fallen angel, I sinned against my Lord and that's why I was cast down to the earth.

Matthew 9:13

" But go learn what this means; ' I desire mercy not sacrifice' for I have not come to call the righteous but sinners."

Luke 19: 10

" For the Son of Man came to seek and save what was lost."

Ecclesiastes 12:7

" and the dust returns to the ground it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

An angel is a heavenly being - looking at Ecclesiastes it uses the word " return."

You can't return to a place you've never been - and if it says the spirit returns to God who gave it - then we originally were with God before the earth was even established. We however, must have committed sins according to Jesus Christ in Matthew, for we are the sinners he is seeking. No man on this earth is righteous with being forgiven. Luke goes ahead and puts into place that we are also " lost " meaning displaced.

We don't belong to the earth, but we are here for sins " original sin" as it's addressed.

Thus I am truly a fallen angel. I became corrupted in my sin in times I've forgotten and as a result must beg forgiveness from Father so I can get back home lol

Hmm, I really don't understand what you asking me about giving up being beaten?

I was saying that Christians in the past were persecuted incredibly harshly for believing and following God's commands even though it was against the law. Giving up something like homosexuality or whatever sins have hold of us so strongly - we have a much more peaceful life now than then to do so lol.

 

[Cobus]

What baby desides whether he is born unclean or holy? What baby CHOOSES his or her parents? There are TWO TYPES of babies born. God says one is holy, and the other is unclean! What is the difference? ( 1 Cor 7:14)
If we all sin at some stage are we not ALL unclean at some stage? Whether I am born unclean or holy, at some stage I will need GOD to get holy AGAIN, or for the first time in my life! But when I am made holy BY GOD, through REBIRTH, then I will remain holy FOREVER.

So I agree with Tommy, Sin is for sinners, holiness is for God's children. No child of God will try to justify sin, he will die for the sin, not IN the sin. If I am dead to sin, sin is dead to me. Then God gave me the victory Jesus had over sin.

What I find amazing, is people claming to be saved, but still dieng in their sin. Not to their sin IN their sin.

Hypocrates teaching a salvation in Jesus, but sinning like all the DEAD!

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

Hmm interesting.

I've never heard about the unclean and holy children; all I know is that there are a lot of " holy " children born of two christian parents, who end up becoming atheist or totally rebuking God altogether.

With that reality in mind, I'm sure the Corinthians verse you mentioned may be more spiritually deep in meaning than literal.

Sin is justified by death lol - Romans 6: 23 " The wages of sin is death,"

Whatever Christians are justifying that I pray they understand the extent of them doing so.

Physical death for sin isn't a worry - matter of factly, physical death is nothing but our fleshy bodies returning to the ground where they came from. It is the second death Romans and God warn about throughout the bible - the very destruction of one's soul.

A lot of people have this belief that those who do not come to God will burn in hell for eternity; but depending on your deeds, you will be punished to hell for a time, and then completely destroyed ( the 2nd death,) once that time is up.

Anyone else pretty terrified of being smited totally out of existence?

I'm so deeply humbled and forever grateful Father brought me back to him...

 

[PS]

<snip>

Here's the kicker for the argument you made about receiving...

John 1:12-13

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, [TO THOSE] he gave the right to become children of God&#8212; 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband&#8217;s will, but born of God.

Please note, bold words and large text are used not to indicate yelling, but to draw attention to specific details (phrases, or sections).

Thank you for your time.

There is far too much there to deal with all in one post, it is best to discuss verse by verse, so lets look at the "kicker" in context which is about John the Baptist who was the forerunner of Jesus and who came to bear witness so that ALL (verse 7) might believe. Salvation is for everyone.

Verse 10 tells us that God&#8217;s CHOSEN PEOPLE did NOT receive him. (so much for predestination.)

The people who became the children of God are those who RECEIVED HIM AND BELIEVED IN HIM.

Those who were chosen/predestined -- the Jews -- rejected the Messiah while those who accepted Jesus of their own free will became the Children of God.

John 1:7 " He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that ALL (not a few predestined) might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. The true light, which gives light to EVERYONE, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and HIS OWN DID NOT RECEIVE HIM. But to ALL who did RECEIVE him, who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Salvation is of God, but we need to believe and accept his free gift of salvation.

 

[starfield]

What baby desides whether he is born unclean or holy? What baby CHOOSES his or her parents? There are TWO TYPES of babies born. God says one is holy, and the other is unclean! What is the difference? ( 1 Cor 7:14)

Sanctified and holy in that passage is not a salvific issue but being 'set apart'. So it does not mean that an unbelieving spouse is automatically saved being married to a believer. Besides the bible does not encouraged believers getting married to unbelievers, "be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers", nonetheless it happens when two unsaved people get married and one gets converted later on.

If the believing spouse stays with the unbelieving spouse, their children and spouse will be holy and sanctified (set apart but not saved) because they will be setting a good example for their family spiritually and raise the children to be godly, thereby there is a greater likelihood for conversion of the unbelieving spouse and children.

"...else were your children unclean; but now are they holy". Prior to the conversion of one spouse, the children were unclean meaning that there was no spiritual influence on them as both parents were unsaved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

.............

ol. I am just trying to show you that faith in christ is not a work in the sense of we are earning something. Agreed. I, and it seems you also, am saying that we choose that faith and by which, God Himself will led us home.

Yes, God leads us

That is the very argument which I believe caused calvin to decry faith by free will as a means to salvation. Faith is not our work, it is Gods work, -- but if God gave us faith, then is that faith really our faith or God's faith? Do we not willfully trust Him and by which faith, He shows us that the confidence we have placed in Him is not a lost cause?

As I said. what faith could we have if God did not do anything? Who is the author and finisher of our faith? Us or God? did we work to earn that faith? or did God do all the work?

because he did everything that we needed in order to even be able to trust him. Agreed, He set the plan in motion on how to obtain salvation through Christ: to believe. So that we no longer trust the Law for our righteousness (that which obtains our salvation = works of the Law)

to put it even more precise, we do not trust self in any way by any law by any deed to save us. our complete faith is in Christ and him alone.

Without his work. we would have nothing to trust in, and we would not be having this discussion.. lol -- Without His work (faith), we would still have the Law which would still send us to Hades But thank God that we no longer have the Law for our righteousness and still face Hades until Jesus would die to our justification. That would only kill Him the second time.

to bad everyone does not think this, they want to crucify Christ again by saying we can lose salvation

which is why I always say, Calvanists are my brothers and sisters in Christ. they just believe we come to the point of repentance and faith differently. They teach the SAME repentnance and faith as we do though -- I was just thinking that today myself, about coming to salvation at different points (freewill and ?)

repentance and faith saves. we both believe this, this should be all that matters right? We might not like how they come to this repentance, or how God rejects people, but is this so serious that we would condemn them? this is what happens when we fight doctrines of men, and not following the truth of God. we hate this. so everything they say must be wrong, I better not agree with anything or I might become like them, so we hate and condemn them. we see that in here, it is very noticeable.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wherein lies then the difference? Does the difference lie within the sinner (and his ability to receive and help himself) or in Christ alone to redeem the utterly helpless? It cannot lie in both.

Your making a twist on words my friend. A sinner can't help himself, if he could, then Christ died in vein. This does not mean he can not receive something. Peter received Gods gift when he did not fully understand it. Yet Christ said he was fully clean. This shows that we do not have to completely understand what the gift is to receive it. The important part is saying yes. and not saying no.

Peter did not fully understand what saved him until I believe Christ forgave him three times (feed my sheep) it was then that he understood he was fully forgiven. I think the same goes with many of us. The thing is, as Peter said, You have the words of eternal life, where else are we going to go? His faith saved him, after that, he learned the truth of what Gods gift really was.

Here's where the problem with prevenient grace comes in. Scripture implies that man is so corrupted by his sin that he wills not what is right before God. There's an enmity and a fruit unto death. There's no spark of goodness in man to be activated to positively respond to the God he hates.

Again. I do not like terms like preventive grace, or irresistible grace. they are not found in scripture. so lets just stick to words in scripture. Using terms like these we fight words of men, and the truth gets skewed in the middle somewhere. Yes there is no spark to do good. at the same time, a natural man can not commit adultery or murder. based on the moral law god has placed in his heart. so he can resist evil. Secondly. Choosing to stand still and trust Christ is not a good work. it is a man admitting he has no hope apart from Christ. and though he may not understand it fully yet. He understands his need and in this helpless frame of mind, he looks for a redeemer. And God shows it to him.

I am saying that those who positively respond to God's call have already experienced a work of God to do so, it is not their own doing. If literally everybody had a "chance" to "receive" what God says is right then the difference must obviously lie within each and every man to either do so or not do so. However, such an idea collides with scripture.

Your right. God did do a work. in fact many works.

1. He put gods laws in their heart
2. He sent the Holy spirit to convict them of sin righteousness and judgment
3. he helps us understand the gospel.
4. He offers us the gift.

None of these are works of men, they are works of God, all done before one comes to christ and calls out to him, In fact, it is these works which cause a man to come to chrit and call out. the problem is, not everyone will do this.

and yes, it is scriptural

God did not send the disciples out to certain people, he sent them to the whole world. with the message of the. The message, Whoever comes to me I will in no means cast out, i will save the, i will forgive their sin debt. I will make them my child.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But, yes EG, I see the difference in wording. thank you.

lol, sorry I waited a few minutes, but had to get to bed, it was already late. Thanks for all your responses to that quote. i am glad someone understands it.

 

[JaumeJ]

Only our Savior was born in the flesh and perfect. As for the handy term, original sin, all have sinned and come short of the glory of Yahweh, God. There is an age of reason reached, and it probably varies from one individual to another, but our Father, Who IS Love, certainly knows the difference. This type of questioning of whether people are or are not innocent in the flesh stems from a lack of faith and understanding, faith in the Father for being fair, and understanding that the creature is not the Creator. All man falls short of the glory that is God, Yahweh, amen.