Paul did NOT die to the law!

[Eccl12and13]

I will be brave enough to tell you that to teach a righteousness of law keeping plainly contradicts the Gospel given to the person who wrote nearly half the books of the NT, and such a belief teaches a works based Gospel, and therefore is opposed to the Gospel that has at its heart a righteousness of faith.
As Paul says:

All who rely on observing the law(as you do) are under a curse for it is written. 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law
Because The righteous will live by faith. The law is not based on faith
Gal3:10&11

It is a gross wrong against the Son of God, who came to earth, suffered and died a terrible death for us, to preach a righteousness of obediance to the law
Yes, to preach or teach such a thing is a grievous error indeed

You keep bringing this "righteousness of the law"! I an not talking about a righteousness of obedience to the law. That is not the topic...for you believe that Paul speaks of ALL of God's laws when he speaks of the law, while I understand that Paul speaks of 2 laws throughout his writings.

My question is simply the following.......


Is it a sin to teach that one should obey God and keep His commandments?

Yes you believe it is a sin to do so....or no.....you do not believe it is a sin to do so.

That is the ONLY question I am asking!



.

 

[mark54]

You keep bringing this "righteousness of the law"! I an not talking about a righteousness of obedience to the law. That is not the topic...for you believe that Paul speaks of ALL of God's laws when he speaks of the law, while I understand that Paul speaks of 2 laws throughout his writings.

My question is simply the following.......


Is it a sin to teach that one should obey God and keep His commandments?

Yes you believe it is a sin to do so....or no.....you do not believe it is a sin to do so.

That is the ONLY question I am asking!



.

You have clearly stated that you believe in a righteousness of obediance to the law, as I am sure many have noted.

 

[mark54]

Incidentally, I chatted once to a Jewish Christian. He told me that he tries his best to obey the law, but he knows in his heart, how well he succeeds
is immaterial to his salvation. For he knew he had one, and only one righteousness for Heaven, faith in the son of God who loved him and gave himself for him

that man did not seek a righteousness of his own, you do.
And the true offence of the cross, is that it is not possible to have a righteousness of your own according to the law

 

[Eccl12and13]

You have clearly stated that you believe in a righteousness of obediance to the law, as I am sure others have noted.

Let's not put words into my mouth.

I know that Paul speaks of 2 sets of laws throughout his writings!

I know that one must do their best to keep God's commandments to the best of their knowledge. For a person cannot keep a law they have no knowledge of. Just as Paul tells us....he did not know it was wrong to lust until he read it in God's word; "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

I know that keeping God's commandments are a requirement to enter into His kingdom; "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

But that is not the topic presented.

My question is simply the following.......


Is it a sin to teach that one should obey God and keep His commandments?

Yes you believe it is a sin to do so....or no.....you do not believe it is a sin to do so.

That is the ONLY question I am asking!


.

 

[zone]

So NO laws were done away with when Jesus died? So that would mean all are still in effect!

John 4:34
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 17:4
I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

FULFILLED

Amen.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Incidentally, I chatted once to a Jewish Christian. He told me that he tries his best to obey the law, but he knows in his heart, how well he succeeds
is immaterial to his salvation. For he knew he had one, and only one righteousness for Heaven, faith in the son of God who loved him and gave himself for him

that man did not seek a righteousness of his own, you do.
And the true offence of the cross, is that it is not possible to have a righteousness of your own according to the law

But.......Is it a sin to teach that one should obey God and keep His commandments?

.

 

[Eccl12and13]

John 4:34
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 17:4
I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

FULFILLED

Amen.

You still have not answered the question.....

Were NO laws done away with when Christ died, some laws, or ALL laws?

If there are no laws then there are no transgressions. Can man still transgress God's laws?

If some laws are done away with then which? We know of at least one that's still in effect; "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." So which are left?

And if ALL of God's laws have been done away with then who is He going to punish when He returns?

So again.....which is it; None, some or ALL?


.

 

[mark54]

But.......Is it a sin to teach that one should obey God and keep His commandments?

.

I an going to write the following in emboldened letters, for you seem keen to avoid addressing the issue here

You have repeatedly stressed that a person has a righteousness of obediance to the law. This is not possible according to the person who wrote nearly half the books of the NT. Such a belief is a grevious offence against the Gospel, and against Christ who came to this earth, suffered and died because no one could be good enough to attain Heaven

The true offence of the cross of Christ is that it is not possible to have a righteousness of your own according to law keeping. But although this is true, you continually state that a person does have a righteousness of law keeping.

As sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot officially class what you say as a sin, but you do certainly downgrade what Christ did for us at Calvary

You seek a righteousness of your own, it is not yours to have

 

[PS]

So NO laws were done away with when Jesus died? So that would mean all are still in effect!

Which is it? Some laws were done away with? All laws were done away with? Or no laws were done away with when Christ died?

Do you even know?
.

The Ten Commandments remain plus these of Jesus. The Ten Comandements are a list of "Do Nots" those of Jesus are more positive generally in their nature.

The Golden Rule
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The other commandments of Jesus
1. "Forgive everybody of all their offences against you."
2. "You must be born again."
3. "Abide in me, and let me abide in you."
4. "Let people see your good works." (do not hide your light under a basket.)
5. "End disputes quickly."
6. "Whatever causes you to sin, get rid of it."
7. "Do not swear oaths at all."
8. "Do not return offence for offence." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "Give what people ask of you, and give more than is required." (Go the extra mile.)
10. "Love your enemies and those who work against you."
11. "Give to the poor to please god, not to gain approval from other people."
12. "Pray privately and simply, not to impress other people."
13. "Make your prayers be like the Lord’s Prayer."
14. "When you fast, do it secretly, not for show."
15. "Store up your treasures in heaven, not on earth."
16. "Do not worry about your material needs."
17. "Do not worry about the future."
18. "Make god your highest priority, and he will take care of all your needs."
19. "Do not judge other people." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "Do not give holy things to dogs or cast your pearls before swine."
21. "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort those in distress."
22. "Follow the narrow path to life." (enter by the narrow gate.)
23. "Beware of false prophets."
24. "Exercise power over unclean spirits."
25. "Love little children, do not despise them."
26. "Do not take the titles 'master' or 'father' for yourself."
27. "Resolve disputes in an orderly way, like this . . . "
28. "Do not oppose other believers in Christ who are not in your group."
29. "Have total faith in god for everything."
30. "Be like the good Samaritan." (go, and do likewise.)
31. "Love other people as i have loved you"
32. "Eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of me."
33. "Wash one another's feet."
34. "Be merciful."
35. "Go and teach all nations, baptising them."
36. "Keep my commandments."
37. "Be prepared for your master to return."

 

[Eccl12and13]

As sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot officially class what you say as a sin.....

Finally! So it is NOT a sin to teach one to obey God and keep His commandments! One that teaches others to obey God and keep His commandments are NOT breaking God's law.

Now.....did Paul teach to keep God's commandments? Let's read BEFORE you answer.....

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Now when Paul read that it was wrong to covet...do you think he taught those newly converted Gentiles not to lust also? Of course he did. Let's read more....

Rom.13
[8] Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Again we find Paul teaching to KEEP God's laws. So he too is NOT sinning. Paul is keeping God's law by telling others to do the same; keep God's commandments!

.

 

[zone]

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

okay?
now since NOT ONE of us does that as we ought, at all times....

i'm back to ....what do you do when you sin?

 

[Enow]

Why do you not answer the questions?

Did Paul teach keeping God's laws? Did Paul tell others to keep God's laws?

This is as simple as it gets.....either he did or he did not!


I'm not asking what his reasons may have been.....I'm just asking if Paul taught, told or encouraged others to keep God's laws?

What say ye?

.

You are implying that Paul did and so where are the verses without going to the OT?

Can you cite verses without us taking it in context to undermine what you are trying to prove with your cherry picking?

We are no longer under God's laws of the Old Covenant so that it is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ in respect to the New Covenant which is doing away with more than just the sacrificial system because it does away with the emphasis on man in obtaining righteousness by the deeds of the law.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

So how does one obtain this righteousness to be filled to never hunger nor thirst any more?

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

By coming to & believing in Jesus Christ. The fact that you believe, you have received the remission of sins and the promise of the permanant indwelling Holy Ghost.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To seek to be justified by the law is to imply that we have not been reconciled yet to be considered His.

Explain what Paul is saying here.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

What are you testifying about more? Our faith in Jesus Christ or proving you are a christian by keeping the deeds of the law as if faith in Jesus Christ wasn't enough to have saved you?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Since we are saved and thus having His seal to call God Father, we are to follow Christ to be His disciples, but we follow by faith in Him to do His work in us because His standard is higher than the worls of the law. Either we rest in Him & His righteousness, or you are saying it is not enough to trust God to live by faith in the Son of God to help us to follow Him.

How we live the christian life is key: either we live by faith or... we live by the flesh in keeping the laws of the OT which Paul explained in Romans 7th chapter that he could not do.

Are your eyes on yourself & your zeal for God to obey Him by keeping the commandments ....

.....Or are your eyes on Him as He is our hope to help us to follow Him as we are the works of His hands and not we ourselves?

 

[mark54]

Finally!

No it is not finally, this is what I wrote

You have repeatedly stressed that a person has a righteousness of obediance to the law. This is not possible according to the person who wrote nearly half the books of the NT. Such a belief is a grevious offence against the Gospel, and against Christ who came to this earth, suffered and died because no one could be good enough to attain Heaven

The true offence of the cross of Christ is that it is not possible to have a righteousness of your own according to law keeping. But although this is true, you continually state that a person does have a righteousness of law keeping.

As sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot officially class what you say as a sin, but you do certainly downgrade what Christ did for us at Calvary

You seek a righteousness of your own, it is not yours to have



You continually stress a person has a righteousness of law keeping. That is a grevious error and will undoubtedly do much damage to any sincere person who believes you, a point that you are now continually trying to duck. Unless you HONESTLY address this point(and I will produce past posts of yours if neccessary) this conversation can go no further

 

[PS]

Finally! So it is NOT a sin to teach one to obey God and keep His commandments! One that teaches others to obey God and keep His commandments are NOT breaking God's law.

Now.....did Paul teach to keep God's commandments? Let's read BEFORE you answer.....

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Now when Paul read that it was wrong to covet...do you think he taught those newly converted Gentiles not to lust also? Of course he did. Let's read more....

Rom.13
[8] Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Again we find Paul teaching to KEEP God's laws. So he too is NOT sinning. Paul is keeping God's law by telling others to do the same; keep God's commandments!

You are treading a dangerous path because as Paul repeatedly says if it wasn't for the law we wouldn't sin, so by you teaching your son the law you are causing him to sin the first time he does anything.

You are turning an innocent person into a law breaker.

 

[mark54]

You are treading a dangerous path because as Paul repeatedly says if it wasn't for the law we wouldn't sin, so by you teaching your son the law you are causing him to sin the first time he does anything.

You are turning an innocent person into a law breaker.

You see, he is now trying to duck his plainly stated belief, that a person has a righteousness according to obediance to the law
YOU'RE RIGHT PS. Such a belief, scripturally has to increase the power of sin in a persons life.
He is on very dangerous ground, and teaching his son this error

 

[Eccl12and13]

The Ten Commandments remain plus these of Jesus. The Ten Comandements are a list of "Do Nots" those of Jesus are more positive generally in their nature.

The Golden Rule
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The other commandments of Jesus
1. "Forgive everybody of all their offences against you."
2. "You must be born again."
3. "Abide in me, and let me abide in you."
4. "Let people see your good works." (do not hide your light under a basket.)
5. "End disputes quickly."
6. "Whatever causes you to sin, get rid of it."
7. "Do not swear oaths at all."
8. "Do not return offence for offence." (Turn the other cheek.)
9. "Give what people ask of you, and give more than is required." (Go the extra mile.)
10. "Love your enemies and those who work against you."
11. "Give to the poor to please god, not to gain approval from other people."
12. "Pray privately and simply, not to impress other people."
13. "Make your prayers be like the Lord’s Prayer."
14. "When you fast, do it secretly, not for show."
15. "Store up your treasures in heaven, not on earth."
16. "Do not worry about your material needs."
17. "Do not worry about the future."
18. "Make god your highest priority, and he will take care of all your needs."
19. "Do not judge other people." (Judge not, lest ye be judged.)
20. "Do not give holy things to dogs or cast your pearls before swine."
21. "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort those in distress."
22. "Follow the narrow path to life." (enter by the narrow gate.)
23. "Beware of false prophets."
24. "Exercise power over unclean spirits."
25. "Love little children, do not despise them."
26. "Do not take the titles 'master' or 'father' for yourself."
27. "Resolve disputes in an orderly way, like this . . . "
28. "Do not oppose other believers in Christ who are not in your group."
29. "Have total faith in god for everything."
30. "Be like the good Samaritan." (go, and do likewise.)
31. "Love other people as i have loved you"
32. "Eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of me."
33. "Wash one another's feet."
34. "Be merciful."
35. "Go and teach all nations, baptising them."
36. "Keep my commandments."
37. "Be prepared for your master to return."

Although the above is not all inclusive the point is that ALL of God's laws were NOT done away with when He died.

In ALL of the gospels what happened the moment Christ died? The vail of the temple was torn in two. The blood of animals was no longer needed for the remission of sins. That was the law that was against us. For that law, the killing of bulls and goats, could not remove sins. That was the set of ordinances that were against us and nailed to His cross. No others!

God added the law of animal sacrifice because man continued to break His other laws. The laws of sacrifice brought us to Christ. When Christ died....so did the laws of the Levites. We are no longer under the schoolmaster of killing animals.

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What law was it that was added? The laws of the Levites and the killing of animals.

[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

And what was the law spoke of? The law that was added; the laws of the Levites and their job to kill animals for the remission of sins. That law was not against the promise of God. For if the killing of animals, the law that was added, could have made the comers there unto perfect, then righteousness would have come by that law. Which? The one that was added! And which law was added? The law of animals sacrifice!

[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

And what law were we bound to keep for the forgiveness of sins? The laws of animal sacrifice. That was the schoolmaster....to keep us in hope, in faith, of another that would have a better sacrifice.

[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But when faith came..when Christ died....we were no longer bound to kill animals! We were no longer under the schoolmaster of the laws of animals sacrifice.

The laws of the Levites are those that required works/deeds, for the work and deeds was the killing of animals.

.

 

[Eccl12and13]

No it is not finally, this is what I wrote

As sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot officially class what you say as a sin,

And the question that I asked was the following;

Is it a sin to teach that God is to be obeyed and to keep His commandments.

So....according to what you said above, "As sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot officially class what you say as a sin...", it is NOT wrong to teach to obey God and to keep His commandments.


.

 

[PS]

Although the above is not all inclusive the point is that ALL of God's laws were NOT done away with when He died.

In ALL of the gospels what happened the moment Christ died? The vail of the temple was torn in two. The blood of animals was no longer needed for the remission of sins. That was the law that was against us. For that law, the killing of bulls and goats, could not remove sins. That was the set of ordinances that were against us and nailed to His cross. No others!

God added the law of animal sacrifice because man continued to break His other laws. The laws of sacrifice brought us to Christ. When Christ died....so did the laws of the Levites. We are no longer under the schoolmaster of killing animals.

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What law was it that was added? The laws of the Levites and the killing of animals.

[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

And what was the law spoke of? The law that was added; the laws of the Levites and their job to kill animals for the remission of sins. That law was not against the promise of God. For if the killing of animals, the law that was added, could have made the comers there unto perfect, then righteousness would have come by that law. Which? The one that was added! And which law was added? The law of animals sacrifice!

[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

And what law were we bound to keep for the forgiveness of sins? The laws of animal sacrifice. That was the schoolmaster....to keep us in hope, in faith, of another that would have a better sacrifice.

[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

But when faith came..when Christ died....we were no longer bound to kill animals! We were no longer under the schoolmaster of the laws of animals sacrifice.

The laws of the Levites are those that required works/deeds, for the work and deeds was the killing of animals.

I think the thing to do is to trust God for the forgiveness of sin which is why Christ paid the penalty for our sin. And shame on you for ignoring Christ's saving grace.

.

 

[mark54]

And the question that I asked was the following;

Is it a sin to teach that God is to be obeyed and to keep His commandments.

So....according to what you said above, "As sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot officially class what you say as a sin...", it is NOT wrong to teach to obey God and to keep His commandments.


.

You have repeatedly stressed that a person has a righteousness of obediance to the law. This is not possible according to the person who wrote nearly half the books of the NT. Such a belief is a grevious offence against the Gospel, and against Christ who came to this earth, suffered and died because no one could be good enough to attain Heaven

The true offence of the cross of Christ is that it is not possible to have a righteousness of your own according to law keeping. But although this is true, you continually state that a person does have a righteousness of law keeping.

As sin is the transgression of the law, I cannot officially class what you say as a sin, but you do certainly downgrade what Christ did for us at Calvary

You seek a righteousness of your own, it is not yours to have


I hope everyone reading this conversation will note you are NOT prepared to address your so often stated belief that a person has A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF LAW KEEPING. All you do is duck and evade from that.

And I repeat, such a belief is grevious error, it diminshes what Christ did for us on the cross, ignores the heart of the Gospel Paul was given to preach, and will undoubtedly do great damage to those who believe what you say

 

[Eccl12and13]

How we live the christian life is key: either we live by faith....

But is not having faith a commandment? Are we not COMMANDED by God to have faith? That makes it a law in itself. Let's read to confirm...

Rom.3
[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

So what happens if we do not keep God's commandment...His LAW to have faith? Will we be allowed entrance into His kingdom? Can a person with NO faith enter there in?

.