https://jesus.net/articles/i-dont-know/
I found it interesting and educational. Hope you enjoy
I found it interesting and educational. Hope you enjoy
An interesting view on theology by one of the early church fathers
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Some Thoughts On The Story:
1. "I don't know" is the appropriate response to things you DO NOT know.
2. However, it is not the appropriate response to things you DO know.
3. It is not appropriate to use "I don't know" as a badge of spirituallity, thinking we are more spiritual if we don't study, or if we don't ever take a stand on controversial things.
4. It is also not appropriate to use "I don't know" as an excuse for huge, sweeping conclusions: just because "I don't know" a thing, that does NOT also mean the thing cannot be known... very often we don't know things simply because we haven't studied them.
If I simply don't know a thing, that gives me no ability to claim it cannot be known.
But humans like to say things like that... it makes us feel better.
5. The real point of the linked story was NOT that it's good to be honest when you don't know a thing; the point of the story was that there are many things which are unknowable, and THUS WE ARE SPIRITUALLY SUPERIOR IF WE DON'T BOTHER.
That's not really a very biblical approach to things.
That isn't really a biblical approach to bible study, or to most things in life.
- Biblically there are SOME particular things which are unknowable.
- Biblically there are SOME issues about which we must throw up our hands, and just say, "it is unknowable."
- Biblically, however, not many pages of scripture fall into this category of "unknowable."
* God gave us the bible so we COULD know things.
We mustn't throw up our hands, and claim "that is unknowable", whenever we have a bit of difficulty.
6. We shouldn't assume that striving for ignorance or uncertainty makes us more humble, and thus more spiritual.
There isn't any place in scripture where ignorance is ennobled or equated with spirituality.
Let's restate that just for added clarity.
- There is no place in scripture where ignorance is a thing to be sought after.
- There is no place in scripture where ignorance is ennobled or equated with spirituality.
We should NOT set a goal for ourselves of being as ignorant as possible.
This just isn't biblical.
Our goal should be to GAIN knowledge and wisdom... that is biblical.
God says that over and over in scripture.
This is common sense: we don't read the bible to learn LESS of God, but to learn MORE of him.
God wants us to gain knowledge and wisdom of spiritual things.
Bad Thinking:
- We are not more spiritual by pretending we don't know things.
- We are not more spiritual by being genuinely ignorant and TRYING not to know things.
- We are not more spiritual by pretending we don't know things so we can avoid controversy.
- We are not more spiritual by assuming anything difficult is necessarily "unknowable".
* Being ignorant, or pretending ignorance, has no magical power to make us more spiritual.
7. I really fear this story is an appeal to false humility.
It seems to be asserting that spiritual things are unknowable, therefore we are spiritually superior if we just go around saying we don't know anything.
- It seems to be both an appeal to ignorance, and an appeal to false humility.
- As I pointed out above in #6, ignorance has no special power to make us more spiritual.
- But humans, by nature, will brag about ANYTHING! They will brag about how much they know, and they will also brag about much they DO NOT know!
- So we must ALWAYS be vigilant about pride; it often creeps in dressed up as false humility.
Clarity on Knowledge:
a. God gave us the scripture, and he commanded us to study it.
b. Just why exactly would God do all of that if he wanted us to remain as ignorant as possible?
c. God does NOT want us to remain as ignorant as possible; God wants us to gain knowledge and wisdom in spiritual things.
d. Although we cannot know ALL spiritual things, there are a great many things we CAN know if we study the scripture... that is WHY the scripture was given.
Conclusion:
1. We should be honest, and admit when we do not know a thing.
2. However, that was not the point of the story; the real point of the story was that spiritual matters are unknowable, and therefore we are "spiritually superior" if we stop trying to know things.
3. The Bible disagrees.
4. The Bible was given for us to learn spiritual truths, and then God commanded us to study.
5. God expects us to study scripture, and learn, and grow in both knowledge and wisdom.
6. There ARE some things which are unknowable, or unknowable to a degree which is full or comprehensive... but this in no way undermines the commands for us to study, and for us to grow in knowledge and wisdom.
7. Finally: Remaining as ignorant as possible, or pretending to be as ignorant as possible, does NOT have any power to make us more spiritual; if we search the scripture we will find that ignorance is never a virtue.
.
1. "I don't know" is the appropriate response to things you DO NOT know.
2. However, it is not the appropriate response to things you DO know.
3. It is not appropriate to use "I don't know" as a badge of spirituallity, thinking we are more spiritual if we don't study, or if we don't ever take a stand on controversial things.
4. It is also not appropriate to use "I don't know" as an excuse for huge, sweeping conclusions: just because "I don't know" a thing, that does NOT also mean the thing cannot be known... very often we don't know things simply because we haven't studied them.
If I simply don't know a thing, that gives me no ability to claim it cannot be known.
But humans like to say things like that... it makes us feel better.
5. The real point of the linked story was NOT that it's good to be honest when you don't know a thing; the point of the story was that there are many things which are unknowable, and THUS WE ARE SPIRITUALLY SUPERIOR IF WE DON'T BOTHER.
That's not really a very biblical approach to things.
That isn't really a biblical approach to bible study, or to most things in life.
- Biblically there are SOME particular things which are unknowable.
- Biblically there are SOME issues about which we must throw up our hands, and just say, "it is unknowable."
- Biblically, however, not many pages of scripture fall into this category of "unknowable."
* God gave us the bible so we COULD know things.
We mustn't throw up our hands, and claim "that is unknowable", whenever we have a bit of difficulty.
6. We shouldn't assume that striving for ignorance or uncertainty makes us more humble, and thus more spiritual.
There isn't any place in scripture where ignorance is ennobled or equated with spirituality.
Let's restate that just for added clarity.
- There is no place in scripture where ignorance is a thing to be sought after.
- There is no place in scripture where ignorance is ennobled or equated with spirituality.
We should NOT set a goal for ourselves of being as ignorant as possible.
This just isn't biblical.
Our goal should be to GAIN knowledge and wisdom... that is biblical.
God says that over and over in scripture.
This is common sense: we don't read the bible to learn LESS of God, but to learn MORE of him.
God wants us to gain knowledge and wisdom of spiritual things.
Bad Thinking:
- We are not more spiritual by pretending we don't know things.
- We are not more spiritual by being genuinely ignorant and TRYING not to know things.
- We are not more spiritual by pretending we don't know things so we can avoid controversy.
- We are not more spiritual by assuming anything difficult is necessarily "unknowable".
* Being ignorant, or pretending ignorance, has no magical power to make us more spiritual.
7. I really fear this story is an appeal to false humility.
It seems to be asserting that spiritual things are unknowable, therefore we are spiritually superior if we just go around saying we don't know anything.
- It seems to be both an appeal to ignorance, and an appeal to false humility.
- As I pointed out above in #6, ignorance has no special power to make us more spiritual.
- But humans, by nature, will brag about ANYTHING! They will brag about how much they know, and they will also brag about much they DO NOT know!
- So we must ALWAYS be vigilant about pride; it often creeps in dressed up as false humility.
Clarity on Knowledge:
a. God gave us the scripture, and he commanded us to study it.
b. Just why exactly would God do all of that if he wanted us to remain as ignorant as possible?
c. God does NOT want us to remain as ignorant as possible; God wants us to gain knowledge and wisdom in spiritual things.
d. Although we cannot know ALL spiritual things, there are a great many things we CAN know if we study the scripture... that is WHY the scripture was given.
Conclusion:
1. We should be honest, and admit when we do not know a thing.
2. However, that was not the point of the story; the real point of the story was that spiritual matters are unknowable, and therefore we are "spiritually superior" if we stop trying to know things.
3. The Bible disagrees.
4. The Bible was given for us to learn spiritual truths, and then God commanded us to study.
5. God expects us to study scripture, and learn, and grow in both knowledge and wisdom.
6. There ARE some things which are unknowable, or unknowable to a degree which is full or comprehensive... but this in no way undermines the commands for us to study, and for us to grow in knowledge and wisdom.
7. Finally: Remaining as ignorant as possible, or pretending to be as ignorant as possible, does NOT have any power to make us more spiritual; if we search the scripture we will find that ignorance is never a virtue.
.
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I think you took the whole story completely out of context.
The context was, that they discussed some extremely complex spiritual matters (I wish they specified what exactly it was)... I took that this must have been something that was extremely hard, if not outright impossible to know from the Bible.
If something is not 100% knowable and confirm-able from the Bible, and I believe there are such things, then "I don't know" probably is an appropriate answer. This is neither being ignorant, or appeal to false humility.
The context was, that they discussed some extremely complex spiritual matters (I wish they specified what exactly it was)... I took that this must have been something that was extremely hard, if not outright impossible to know from the Bible.
If something is not 100% knowable and confirm-able from the Bible, and I believe there are such things, then "I don't know" probably is an appropriate answer. This is neither being ignorant, or appeal to false humility.
1. The CONCLUSION was that it is virtuous and noble to "not know."
2. The particular doctrinal matter being discussed (a kind of McGuffin) was LEFT OUT, INTENTIONALLY, so that all focus would be on a GENERAL CONCLUSION about "not knowing" in a GENERAL SENSE... the story forces us to applying "not knowing" in a general sense to all spiritual truths.
3. I think you had nothing but the best intentions when posting the story. And I completely agree that when we don't know a thing, we should just admit that we don't know. I completely agree.
4. However, that is not actually what the story was teaching.
The story was written in a very particular way, to draw us to a very particular kind of conclusion... see my point #2.
God Bless.
2. The particular doctrinal matter being discussed (a kind of McGuffin) was LEFT OUT, INTENTIONALLY, so that all focus would be on a GENERAL CONCLUSION about "not knowing" in a GENERAL SENSE... the story forces us to applying "not knowing" in a general sense to all spiritual truths.
3. I think you had nothing but the best intentions when posting the story. And I completely agree that when we don't know a thing, we should just admit that we don't know. I completely agree.
4. However, that is not actually what the story was teaching.
The story was written in a very particular way, to draw us to a very particular kind of conclusion... see my point #2.
God Bless.
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More:
You even see my point restated in the commentary below the story, by the auther... the author's commentary clarifies the actual conclusion of the story.
The old stories indeed prove to be relevant for today. "I don't know" as the correct answer to complex theological issues. How beautiful is that?
The author understands the TRUE conclusion of the story.
He doesn't say "I don't know" is AN answer to SOME complex theological issues.
He says "I don't know" is THE CORRECT ANSWER to complex theology... meaning... THERE IS NO REAL ANSWER.
The author here understood the actual conclusion, and he parrots it.
THERE IS NO REAL ANSWER TO COMPLEX THEOLOGY... SO JUST LET IT GO.
Sometimes things are messy and confusing, sometimes it's on purpose... so we really have to slow down and examine things more closely.
..
You even see my point restated in the commentary below the story, by the auther... the author's commentary clarifies the actual conclusion of the story.
The old stories indeed prove to be relevant for today. "I don't know" as the correct answer to complex theological issues. How beautiful is that?
The author understands the TRUE conclusion of the story.
He doesn't say "I don't know" is AN answer to SOME complex theological issues.
He says "I don't know" is THE CORRECT ANSWER to complex theology... meaning... THERE IS NO REAL ANSWER.
The author here understood the actual conclusion, and he parrots it.
THERE IS NO REAL ANSWER TO COMPLEX THEOLOGY... SO JUST LET IT GO.
Sometimes things are messy and confusing, sometimes it's on purpose... so we really have to slow down and examine things more closely.
..
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Ok, I see what you're saying now. Catholic tradition relies a lot on church fathers and they do like to keep people in ignorance (telling them about saint lives all the time but not reading the Bible, and they do not encourage their believers to study the Bible just to repeat prayers). I just didn't think about all of that when I posted... I only understood it to be about things we can't know from the Bible... also what I found useful is how the difference in monks was illustrative... usually the people who are the least mature like to teach the most (which doesn't mean everyone who teaches is immature, but it's a certain pattern) and as people grow they should gain in reverence to God and be more careful what they say/teach about God. I agree with you, on second look, about the way it is posed. I didn't pay much attention to his conclusion, I was taken by what I gathered from it and thought it would be useful to post. My bad.
It's fine to post things.
It's fine to even post confusing things we need to discuss.
I'm not upset with you in the slightest, and I totally agree with you: when we don't really understand a thing, we should admit that.
I agree with you.
The reaon I wrote so much about this story is because this issue of thinking "ignorance is virtuous" has been coming up a lot in the forum.
I guess I'm a bit on edge about it, lol.
Please keep posting anything you think is interesting.
It's good to talk about things.
.
It's fine to even post confusing things we need to discuss.
I'm not upset with you in the slightest, and I totally agree with you: when we don't really understand a thing, we should admit that.
I agree with you.
The reaon I wrote so much about this story is because this issue of thinking "ignorance is virtuous" has been coming up a lot in the forum.
I guess I'm a bit on edge about it, lol.
Please keep posting anything you think is interesting.
It's good to talk about things.
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Oh, did I really miss that, because wherever I turn, usually everybody claims to know everything... 
Ignorance is a MAJOR issue in Catholic background, especially Eastern Orthodox (which I am very familiar with).
I studied and spoon-dug-my way out of it into Bible based faith. Had no idea exalting ignorance could ever be a thing among Protestants...
Either way, thank you, for expressing your concerns with kindness.
Ignorance is a MAJOR issue in Catholic background, especially Eastern Orthodox (which I am very familiar with).
I studied and spoon-dug-my way out of it into Bible based faith. Had no idea exalting ignorance could ever be a thing among Protestants...
Either way, thank you, for expressing your concerns with kindness.
Oh, did I really miss that, because wherever I turn, usually everybody claims to know everything...
Ignorance is a MAJOR issue in Catholic background, especially Eastern Orthodox (which I am very familiar with).
I studied and spoon-dug-my way out of it into Bible based faith. Had no idea exalting ignorance could ever be a thing among Protestants...
Either way, thank you, for expressing your concerns with kindness.
Ignorance is a MAJOR issue in Catholic background, especially Eastern Orthodox (which I am very familiar with).
I studied and spoon-dug-my way out of it into Bible based faith. Had no idea exalting ignorance could ever be a thing among Protestants...
Either way, thank you, for expressing your concerns with kindness.
I'm in total agreement with everything you're thinking.
I mean, if I wasn't in agreement... that would be fine too, lol.
But I am in total agreement with every single thing you're saying.
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