Is Westminster Abbey a Christian church????

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Mar 4, 2022
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#1
The first Bible I read about five years ago was my moms and I studied with it and believed with it is called Westminster Study Bible revised standard version... My question is aren't they an Anglican communion I thought they believed in a different doctrine??? I also have this cool book of the treasures of Westminster abbey with pictures... I'm wondering why and how I got a bible from England first???? Anyone help me out??? What religion are they???
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
43,308
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#2
Bibles are not usually denominational. I say not usually because there are known denominations that
do print their own Bible to suit their theology. The 1965 Westminster Study Bible is published in New York.
Benedictine monks founded Westminster Abbey in 960AD. They retain a tradition of Christian worship.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
2,999
1,848
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#3
The first Bible I read about five years ago was my moms and I studied with it and believed with it is called Westminster Study Bible revised standard version... My question is aren't they an Anglican communion I thought they believed in a different doctrine??? I also have this cool book of the treasures of Westminster abbey with pictures... I'm wondering why and how I got a bible from England first???? Anyone help me out??? What religion are they???
Westminster Abbey is a building. The church is not a building. The fundamental doctrines of the Anglican church are OK. They believe in baby sprinkling; I believe baptism is for believers. I attended (under compulsion) an Anglican church from the age of 10-12. I did not hear the gospel once. It was just boring repetition and brotherhood of man stuff. Yet other Anglican churches preach the gospel regularly, so I have discovered. Nicky Gumbel, an Anglican, started the Alpha series, which many denominations have taken up - even the local Baptists.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
20,754
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#4
For some reason all I can think about is that old joke...

They discovered photons have mass. I didn't even know they were Catholic.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
2,870
1,586
113
London
#5
Westminster Abbey is a building. The church is not a building. The fundamental doctrines of the Anglican church are OK. They believe in baby sprinkling; I believe baptism is for believers. I attended (under compulsion) an Anglican church from the age of 10-12. I did not hear the gospel once. It was just boring repetition and brotherhood of man stuff. Yet other Anglican churches preach the gospel regularly, so I have discovered. Nicky Gumbel, an Anglican, started the Alpha series, which many denominations have taken up - even the local Baptists.
little understood fact ... Nicky Gumbel came to prominence during the Toronto blessing.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
2,870
1,586
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London
#6
The Anglican church is comprised of three distinct wings, The Catholic or conservative wing [known as high Anglican] the Evangelical wing and the Liberal wing [which together with the evangelicals are known as low church] They all dwell together in blissful compromise. The Archbishopric of Canterbury is rotated between the three wings.

in spite of all the odds the Anglican church has always produced godly people.
 

Mission21

Pathfinder
Mar 12, 2019
699
670
93
#7
I like stories of the Methodist Movement/Revival.
---
The Methodist Movement started/originated in the Church of England (Anglican)..
- in the 18th century.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
778
370
63
#8
The Anglican church is comprised of three distinct wings, The Catholic or conservative wing [known as high Anglican] the Evangelical wing and the Liberal wing [which together with the evangelicals are known as low church] They all dwell together in blissful compromise. The Archbishopric of Canterbury is rotated between the three wings.

in spite of all the odds the Anglican church has always produced godly people.
Evmur, you state, "In spite of all the odds the Anglican church has always produced godly people." You just need to look at the history of the people of the Anglican Church and what's people did during England's colonial period, and see that is an untrue statement. They enslaved so many peoples. And don't overlook the fact that the founder of the Anglican church, Henry VIII, was a mass murderer.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
778
370
63
#9
The first Bible I read about five years ago was my moms and I studied with it and believed with it is called Westminster Study Bible revised standard version... My question is aren't they an Anglican communion I thought they believed in a different doctrine??? I also have this cool book of the treasures of Westminster abbey with pictures... I'm wondering why and how I got a bible from England first???? Anyone help me out??? What religion are they???

Actually, the Anglican Church is more of a 'political movement' than a Christian church. It's founder, Henry VIII was a mass murderer who demanded that the church, in England, fall under his political control.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
778
370
63
#10
Actually, the Anglican Church is more of a 'political movement' than a Christian church. It's founder, Henry VIII was a mass murderer who demanded that the church, in England, fall under his political control.
So, just how many people were murdered by Henry VIII and his minions of the Anglican Church? Estimates go as high as 72,000, and that's a huge number considering that England's population at that time was only 3 million: How many people did Henry VIII execute? - History with Henry
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
18,807
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#11

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
2,870
1,586
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London
#12
Evmur, you state, "In spite of all the odds the Anglican church has always produced godly people." You just need to look at the history of the people of the Anglican Church and what's people did during England's colonial period, and see that is an untrue statement. They enslaved so many peoples. And don't overlook the fact that the founder of the Anglican church, Henry VIII, was a mass murderer.
I did not say all Anglicans are godly.

hey, guess what? I am an english working class man ... My class was treated just as bad as any Indian person, The empire was RICH but we were poor. You could be deported to Australia or even hung for stealing to feed your starving kids, it's not so long ago. They used to make children work 12 hours a day, cleaning chimneys, working farms, or working in factories.

And the Anglican church sided against the unions ... the evangelicals in America STILL side against the unions.

The Anglican changed from being the Roman Catholic church in one day ... what changed? nothing. Except whereas the Pope was the Supreme head [usurper] now Henry was Supreme head [usurper]

I did not say all Anglican are godly, I don't even believe the ones who are godly are so because they are Anglican, there are godly Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals.

God is great eh?
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
778
370
63
#13
I did not say all Anglicans are godly.

hey, guess what? I am an english working class man ... My class was treated just as bad as any Indian person, The empire was RICH but we were poor. You could be deported to Australia or even hung for stealing to feed your starving kids, it's not so long ago. They used to make children work 12 hours a day, cleaning chimneys, working farms, or working in factories.

And the Anglican church sided against the unions ... the evangelicals in America STILL side against the unions.

The Anglican changed from being the Roman Catholic church in one day ... what changed? nothing. Except whereas the Pope was the Supreme head [usurper] now Henry was Supreme head [usurper]

I did not say all Anglican are godly, I don't even believe the ones who are godly are so because they are Anglican, there are godly Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals.

God is great eh?
Evmur, I know that you speak the truth about the 'Class Structure' in England. My mother was born and raised in England, to the lower class. She was a maid and she was expected to remain in that class for the rest of her life, as were others of her lowly status.

The only thing that did save her from that fate was the outbreak of WWII. My father, a farmboy from Michigan, enlisted and trained for DDay in England. He met my 'future' mother' there, married her, and brought her back to the USA after the war.

Maybe things have changed over the decades, but your point is well taken. England was a very snobbish and class conscious country. And, of course, when they were building up their empire, they treated all those who fell under their rule like dirt, especially in India.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
20,754
6,163
113
#14
I like stories of the Methodist Movement/Revival.
---
The Methodist Movement started/originated in the Church of England (Anglican)..
- in the 18th century.
Ah yes... Back then they were known as the "Shouting Methodists."
 
Nov 26, 2021
398
167
43
India
#15
Interestingly, the Great Methodist Reformer John Wesley believed it to be a duty to pray for the Faithful Departed.

"Exactly answerable to all this, are those awful words, in the prayer at the burial of the dead — ‘Beseeching Thee, that it may please Thee of Thy gracious goodness, shortly to accomplish the number of Thine elect, and to hasten Thy Kingdom; that we. with all those who are departed in the true faith of Thy Holy Name, may have our perfect consummation and bliss, both in body and soul, in Thy everlasting glory.'” Ss. 1. 298. . . .

And in a Manuscript of Mr. Wesley’s recently published for the first time; without date, but expressing the sentiment of his whole life as the above citations from his several Works sufficiently show; he says, “I believe it to be a duty to observe to pray for the Faithful Departed.” https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/01/john-wesley-believed-in-prayer-for-the-dead.html
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
2,999
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#16
little understood fact ... Nicky Gumbel came to prominence during the Toronto blessing.
I did not know that. Many Christians rejected the TB. I don't know where Nicky Gumbel stands on it. It seemed to me at the time that it was mostly, but not exclusively, Pentecostals who were deceived.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
43,308
17,993
113
#17
I did not know that. Many Christians rejected the TB. I don't know where Nicky Gumbel stands on it.
It seemed to me at the time that it was mostly, but not exclusively, Pentecostals who were deceived.
2000: The Guardian reported that 250,000 agnostics in the United Kingdom turned to a belief in Jesus through Nicky Gumbel's Alpha course." Nicky Gumbel was also later recorded as being in attendance at some of the Toronto Blessing meetings.

Nicky Gumbel: Gumbel was the curate of Holy Trinity Brompton at the time of the Toronto Blessing and is the current vicar of the church, the biggest Anglican church in the United Kingdom. He has been quoted as saying that the Toronto Blessing was "the kick start that the Alpha course needed". wiki

At a cautious estimate, in Britain alone and in less than a decade, a quarter of a million agnostics have found God through Gumbel. Alpha is uniquely successful, and branching out abroad, so far to 112 countries (probably many more now, as this article is from 22 years ago). 120 of the 158 British prisons run Alpha courses; some have six-month waiting lists (again, may be more now). US Governor George W Bush was so impressed by the impact of Alpha in the British prison system that he wants to start a trial program at once in Texas.

On January 20, 1994, at a concrete church next to Toronto airport, 80% of the congregation, apropos of nothing, suddenly fell to the floor and began writhing around, apparently singing in tongues and convulsing violently. Rumours about this milestone - which became known as the Toronto Blessing - quickly spread to Britain. Nicky flew to Toronto to see it for himself. Was it mass hysteria or a miracle, a real experience of the Holy Spirit? "I don't talk about it now," says Nicky. "It divides people. It splits churches. It is very controversial. But I'll tell you - I think the Toronto Blessing was a wonderful, wonderful thing." Nicky returned from Canada, spoke passionately at HTB about the Toronto Blessing and, lo and behold, his congregation, too, began rolling on the floor, etc. The services soon became so popular, with queues around the block, that they were compelled to introduce two Sunday-evening sittings - and still not everyone could get in. HTB became Britain's richest church. (It still is: last year's income was £5.1m.) This evangelical euphoria lasted the year, with miracles such as Prison Alpha cropping up all over the place.

Nicky's new direction combined with his charisma, his dazzlingly constructed weekly talks, and the Toronto Blessing caused Alpha's popularity to explode through the 90s. In 1992, there were five Alpha courses in Britain; 100 rusty churchgoers attended that year. By 1994 there were 26,700 attendees. By the end of last year (1999), there were 14,200 courses around the world, with 1.5 million attendees. source

***

I found all of that very interesting, thank you :D I surrendered my opposition to God while attending
an Alpha Course, and highly recommend it to people looking for answers within the Christian faith.





There are 10 videos total.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
2,999
1,848
113
#18
Interestingly, the Great Methodist Reformer John Wesley believed it to be a duty to pray for the Faithful Departed.

"Exactly answerable to all this, are those awful words, in the prayer at the burial of the dead — ‘Beseeching Thee, that it may please Thee of Thy gracious goodness, shortly to accomplish the number of Thine elect, and to hasten Thy Kingdom; that we. with all those who are departed in the true faith of Thy Holy Name, may have our perfect consummation and bliss, both in body and soul, in Thy everlasting glory.'” Ss. 1. 298. . . .

And in a Manuscript of Mr. Wesley’s recently published for the first time; without date, but expressing the sentiment of his whole life as the above citations from his several Works sufficiently show; he says, “I believe it to be a duty to observe to pray for the Faithful Departed.” https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/01/john-wesley-believed-in-prayer-for-the-dead.html
I see no logic in that, let alone biblical justification. The Wesley brothers were truly men of God, but not perfect. They even had disputes with each other and fell out for a time.

I don't know why you would pray for people who are in heaven, free from the flesh, who have no earthly needs and who know all things. God Himself wipes away any tears of regret and the blood of Christ erases sin as if it never happened. What do they need? Nothing.

Jude 1:24
"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you unblemished in His glorious presence, with great joy......"

The Reformation is a work in progress still. While much has been restored that was lost, there is still a way to go.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
2,999
1,848
113
#19
2000: The Guardian reported that 250,000 agnostics in the United Kingdom turned to a belief in Jesus through Nicky Gumbel's Alpha course." Nicky Gumbel was also later recorded as being in attendance at some of the Toronto Blessing meetings.

Nicky Gumbel: Gumbel was the curate of Holy Trinity Brompton at the time of the Toronto Blessing and is the current vicar of the church, the biggest Anglican church in the United Kingdom. He has been quoted as saying that the Toronto Blessing was "the kick start that the Alpha course needed". wiki

At a cautious estimate, in Britain alone and in less than a decade, a quarter of a million agnostics have found God through Gumbel. Alpha is uniquely successful, and branching out abroad, so far to 112 countries (probably many more now, as this article is from 22 years ago). 120 of the 158 British prisons run Alpha courses; some have six-month waiting lists (again, may be more now). US Governor George W Bush was so impressed by the impact of Alpha in the British prison system that he wants to start a trial program at once in Texas.

On January 20, 1994, at a concrete church next to Toronto airport, 80% of the congregation, apropos of nothing, suddenly fell to the floor and began writhing around, apparently singing in tongues and convulsing violently. Rumours about this milestone - which became known as the Toronto Blessing - quickly spread to Britain. Nicky flew to Toronto to see it for himself. Was it mass hysteria or a miracle, a real experience of the Holy Spirit? "I don't talk about it now," says Nicky. "It divides people. It splits churches. It is very controversial. But I'll tell you - I think the Toronto Blessing was a wonderful, wonderful thing." Nicky returned from Canada, spoke passionately at HTB about the Toronto Blessing and, lo and behold, his congregation, too, began rolling on the floor, etc. The services soon became so popular, with queues around the block, that they were compelled to introduce two Sunday-evening sittings - and still not everyone could get in. HTB became Britain's richest church. (It still is: last year's income was £5.1m.) This evangelical euphoria lasted the year, with miracles such as Prison Alpha cropping up all over the place.

Nicky's new direction combined with his charisma, his dazzlingly constructed weekly talks, and the Toronto Blessing caused Alpha's popularity to explode through the 90s. In 1992, there were five Alpha courses in Britain; 100 rusty churchgoers attended that year. By 1994 there were 26,700 attendees. By the end of last year (1999), there were 14,200 courses around the world, with 1.5 million attendees. source

***

I found all of that very interesting, thank you :D I surrendered my opposition to God while attending
an Alpha Course, and highly recommend it to people looking for answers within the Christian faith.





There are 10 videos total.
There are a number of well known Christians who accept the TB. I'm neither well known or a believer in the TB. I am convinced that it is the last days deception Jesus said would deceive the elect (Mark 13:22). I don't doubt the sincerity of some of the advocates of the TB. I do question their discernment. The TB violates God's word on a number of fronts. I'm happy to justify that statement if you are interested.

I did not come to this conclusion lightly. I went to many meetings myself as well as with other people in our fellowship. We were hoping that it was true revival. After about a year, we became convinced that it was fake. And yes, there were similar manifestations, equally false, during Azusa St and also in Russia and Communist East Germany.

As an aside, I am not a cessasionist. I am baptised in the Holy Spirit and I have some gifts of the Spirit.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
43,308
17,993
113
#20
There are a number of well known Christians who accept the TB. I'm neither well known or a believer in the TB. I am convinced that it is the last days deception Jesus said would deceive the elect (Mark 13:22). I don't doubt the sincerity of some of the advocates of the TB. I do question their discernment. The TB violates God's word on a number of fronts. I'm happy to justify that statement if you are interested.

I did not come to this conclusion lightly. I went to many meetings myself as well as with other people in our fellowship. We were hoping that it was true revival. After about a year, we became convinced that it was fake. And yes, there were similar manifestations, equally false, during Azusa St and also in Russia and Communist East Germany.

As an aside, I am not a cessasionist. I am baptised in the Holy Spirit and I have some gifts of the Spirit.
I don't have an opinion on the TB, but have "met" people who were there and believe them
to be sincere. I would quote what Nicky says about it, though he was there and I was not.
I was not even a Christian then ;) Nicky:
"It divides people. It splits churches. It is very controversial."