Women in leadership, as speakers, head coverings etc.

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FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
909
306
63
#1
Throughout scripture women proclaimed God's word & prophesied.

The Samaritan woman at the well told/preached to men in her town. How, she'd found the promised Messiah. And they followed her to see/meet Him.

Priscilla taught Apollos.

Esther persuaded a king to withdraw his decree, saving the Jews from destruction.

Another bold break in tradition is when Ruth (a gentile) proposed to Boaz & he accepted.

Notable example, Judge Deborah:

Judge Deborah found in Judges chapters 4 & 5. The LORD choose her, spoke through her (the Palm of Deborah) & used her to defeat the Canaan king, freeing the Israelis. Deborah is recorded a prophetess, poet, warrior & 4th Judge of Israel.

Although Deborah was the only female Judge. She's 1 of 4 women my search found to be called an OT prophet. Miriam, Huldah (2 Kgs 22:14 & 2 Chron 34:22), Noadiah (Neh 6:14). Generally we connect the word prophet to OT figures foretelling future events (Isa, Dan, Eze, Joel, Zec etc). In the NT the primary use of the word means, one chosen to teach, refute or admonish scriptures. Find a Vines dictionary link at the bottom.

Judge Deborah, put into a leadership position in Israel by the Lord. Paul placed Phebe in a leadership position at the church in Cenchrea, a port in Corinth.

Women's rights were culturally, socially & politically oppressed. Woman weren't allowed to partake in public debate. Paul's conundrum was the places he was establishing churches were under Rome's rule/control/laws. This problem speaks volumes to his writing that women remain silent or to get with their husband later.

Corinth was a major trading hub & idol worship was rampant during the time (Acts 17:16-23).

Peoples from many regions & religions came to trade here. A sanctuary was in Corinth dedicated to an idol goddess, Aphrodite. Prostitution was a well known attraction & the women dressed for the occasion.

Women of the time (culturally) wore a head covering. Not so much with the ladies of the night. No head covering, gold (or fancy) ribbons, pins, excessive makeup etc. were trade advertisements. Christianity was in it's infancy, the message was, this is God's house dress accordingly.

Rom 16:
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(NOTE: KJV translates servant of the church, AMP a deaconess, CEV a leader in the church, Darby minister of the assembly, DRA in the ministry of the church, ERV special servant, NIV a deacon, YLT ministrant of the assembly. I believe deacon (a Church leadership role) would be the accurate translation).

2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
(NOTE: Paul calls her a protector of the faith & himself. And tells the whole congregation to do whatever business she asks. Find Vines dictionary link below on succourer)

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
(NOTE: Not only had these women risked themselves for the gospels sake. They lead church groups in their homes).

Acts 2:
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

4 and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(NOTE: Jesus fill many with the promised gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit)

16 this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
(NOTE: Joel foretold this event)

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
(NOTE: Peter says, Joel told us: men & WOMEN shall be filled with the Holy Spirit & THEY shall prophesy = Teach, refute & admonish scripture)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(NOTE: CHRIST gave these gifts/offices to his church: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors & teachers. I believe the order Paul puts then in is also an order of importance. Prophets being 2nd to apostle)

Closing thoughts:
God's word is alive & active (Heb 4:12) always accomplishing its purpose, NEVER returning to Him void (Isa 55:11). No matter who the speaker is male of FEMALE!

The fundamental purpose of every Christian (man/WOMAN) is to share the gospel: Christ died for your sins, was buried & rose on the 3rd day (1 Cor 15:1-4).

Anyone that gets in the way (like trying to shut women up) is impeding this Christ given commission (Matt 28:19). Doing injustice to God 1st, themselves & the lost person that will remain lost.

Eph 5:25 (paraphrase) God tells the man, not the woman, to put higher value on his wife's life then on his own. Point: God doesn't see woman as 2nd class or of lessor value.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Prophet https://studybible.info/vines/Prophet

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Succorer https://studybible.info/vines/Succorer.

Post is My Opinion Only.
 
Dec 17, 2018
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#3
A pastor that i trust with his teachings said that the vale that is mentioned in the bible for woman to put on their heads is for the Angels not to sin because we will judge the eventually. So there is no need to tempt them.
If you think about it god makes promises that he keeps and loves everyone, there is no way man has prevail over woman as there is no way a group of people is above any other group of people.
And the part of the bible that commands woman not to teach is because civil order, due to the man being the head of the family. In resume, to keep the church gatherings organized.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
909
306
63
#4
A pastor that i trust with his teachings said that the vale that is mentioned in the bible for woman to put on their heads is for the Angels not to sin because we will judge the eventually. So there is no need to tempt them.
If you think about it god makes promises that he keeps and loves everyone, there is no way man has prevail over woman as there is no way a group of people is above any other group of people.
And the part of the bible that commands woman not to teach is because civil order, due to the man being the head of the family. In resume, to keep the church gatherings organized.
The focus of the OP was woman should not be stopped from proclaiming Gods word. Nor does God see/treat them as of lesser value.

The post referenced cultural head covering of the time. Roman/gentile woman wore head coverings for their reasons & Jewish/Israeli woman for there's, Paul reveals a Holy Spirit inspired covering structure/authority/order/rank.

I can't speak your Pastors position on coverings. I will comment on what on 1 Cor 11:10 that references angels & some context surrounding it.

1 Cor 11:10 Word translated: power KJV, authority over NIV, sing of authority AMP, under authority ERV, a token of authority upon the head YLT.

In 1 Cor chapter 11, a power structure/authority/order/rank is being taught. vs 3 Paul say's; the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(NOTE: Authority/order/rank God the Father, God the Son, man/husband, woman/wife.)

The woman wearing a head covering was making a statement:

In obedient submission to God the Father. I ware this head covering to showing/announcing wifely God ordered submission to my husband. Who is under/submits God the Son, who submits to God the Father (1 Cor 15:28, Gal 1:4, Jn 6:38-39, John 5:30)

1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
(NOTE: After the judgment when the Son has accomplished thru/by total submission to Father. God the Son then submit ALL to the Father)

Additional context:

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
(NOTE: Women saved/unsaved still undergo birth pains. God invokes a cut in rank. It's here at the Garden judgment Eve loses equal rank with Adam. At the resurrection Eve/womans original equal rank will be forever fully restored. Adam received sin/rebellion judgments. And both are removed from the garden)

Additional related scripture order/rank/authority:

Gal 6:4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

John 6:
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
 

PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
717
356
63
Australia
#5
Call me old fashion but i still believe in the words of the Bible. I don't believe women belong in positions of authority
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
9,939
3,611
113
#6
sometimes God gives women authority to speak for Him even when she is married. as He did with Queen Esther. If Esther had not said anything, her entire people would have been killed.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,726
1,064
113
#7
I happen to just believe and practice what the Bible teaches about women, veilings, and women's roles. And what the Bible teaches sure does not keep women tongue-tied; nor does it impede their ministry and work in the church and the community.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
1,358
808
113
#8
Throughout scripture women proclaimed God's word & prophesied.

The Samaritan woman at the well told/preached to men in her town. How, she'd found the promised Messiah. And they followed her to see/meet Him.

Priscilla taught Apollos.

Esther persuaded a king to withdraw his decree, saving the Jews from destruction.

Another bold break in tradition is when Ruth (a gentile) proposed to Boaz & he accepted.

Notable example, Judge Deborah:

Judge Deborah found in Judges chapters 4 & 5. The LORD choose her, spoke through her (the Palm of Deborah) & used her to defeat the Canaan king, freeing the Israelis. Deborah is recorded a prophetess, poet, warrior & 4th Judge of Israel.

Although Deborah was the only female Judge. She's 1 of 4 women my search found to be called an OT prophet. Miriam, Huldah (2 Kgs 22:14 & 2 Chron 34:22), Noadiah (Neh 6:14). Generally we connect the word prophet to OT figures foretelling future events (Isa, Dan, Eze, Joel, Zec etc). In the NT the primary use of the word means, one chosen to teach, refute or admonish scriptures. Find a Vines dictionary link at the bottom.

Judge Deborah, put into a leadership position in Israel by the Lord. Paul placed Phebe in a leadership position at the church in Cenchrea, a port in Corinth.

Women's rights were culturally, socially & politically oppressed. Woman weren't allowed to partake in public debate. Paul's conundrum was the places he was establishing churches were under Rome's rule/control/laws. This problem speaks volumes to his writing that women remain silent or to get with their husband later.
I think you overstate the plight of women in ancient times. Women didn't have to go to war, and were often spared when an invading army killed the men. In the times of Rome, women were often the heads of their household.

As far as the Old Testament went, women were free to join Israel, whilst Gentile men had to get circumcised, quite a disincentive to joining God's people if not done at birth.

Men and women are different, yes, and were and should be treated differently, but God values them both. However, it should not be forgotten that it was Eve who was deceived by the devil and was the reason for Adam sinning. Women in general are more easily deceived, and this is one of the reasons God gives that women should not have authority over men. This does not mean that God cannot use women in different roles, as in the examples you quote. However, the role of pastor-teacher in the Church is not a role for women.
 
Dec 17, 2018
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#9
I think you overstate the plight of women in ancient times. Women didn't have to go to war, and were often spared when an invading army killed the men. In the times of Rome, women were often the heads of their household.

As far as the Old Testament went, women were free to join Israel, whilst Gentile men had to get circumcised, quite a disincentive to joining God's people if not done at birth.

Men and women are different, yes, and were and should be treated differently, but God values them both. However, it should not be forgotten that it was Eve who was deceived by the devil and was the reason for Adam sinning. Women in general are more easily deceived, and this is one of the reasons God gives that women should not have authority over men. This does not mean that God cannot use women in different roles, as in the examples you quote. However, the role of pastor-teacher in the Church is not a role for women.
I mean, if you think it like that at least woman got deceived by the smartest angel...Not another human being.
For me that point of woman being the cause is just nonsense, does not mean anything about woman in a wrong way, at least not more that it states about man, falling over some other fellow human being.
I don't know, its hard for me to blame woman for our fallen ways. Guess it was just a part of being human.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
1,358
808
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#10
I mean, if you think it like that at least woman got deceived by the smartest angel...Not another human being.
I wouldn't call the devil the smartest angel. Any angel who is going to be burning in hell for all eternity isn't that smart in my book.

For me that point of woman being the cause is just nonsense, does not mean anything about woman in a wrong way, at least not more that it states about man, falling over some other fellow human being.
I don't know, its hard for me to blame woman for our fallen ways. Guess it was just a part of being human.
Genesis highlights flaws in both men and women that exist to this day. Women want to lead men, and believe they know better, when men are not so susceptible to deception, and men should lead. Men are often silent although they should lead women - aware of the deception the women has believed, they often go along with the crime anyway for the sake of the deceived woman.
 
Dec 17, 2018
65
30
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#11
I wouldn't call the devil the smartest angel. Any angel who is going to be burning in hell for all eternity isn't that smart in my book.

Genesis highlights flaws in both men and women that exist to this day. Women want to lead men, and believe they know better, when men are not so susceptible to deception, and men should lead. Men are often silent although they should lead women - aware of the deception the women has believed, they often go along with the crime anyway for the sake of the deceived woman.
The bible i believe it says it is the smartest and the most beautiful of them all.
Soo....It's the smartest in my book
 

Dinks

New member
Aug 28, 2020
4
2
1
#13
We will all know who had it right when the trumpet sounds:)
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,521
113
#14
A pastor that i trust with his teachings said that the vale that is mentioned in the bible for woman to put on their heads is for the Angels not to sin because we will judge the eventually. So there is no need to tempt them.
I highly doubt that the sight of angels is so limited that they can't see through a layer of thin fabric.
Veil = kryptonite?
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
1,358
808
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#15
I highly doubt that the sight of angels is so limited that they can't see through a layer of thin fabric.
Veil = kryptonite?
I think it's more like a sign of authority or ownership. Like if a woman wears a wedding ring, most moral men will realise she is out-of-bounds and won't seek to pursue her, irrespective of how pretty or clever or anything else she is. The wedding ring doesn't hide any of this, but shows that she belongs to another.

Genesis 6:1 - 2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

1 Corinthians 11:5 - 10 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
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#16
I think it's more like a sign of authority or ownership. Like if a woman wears a wedding ring, most moral men will realise she is out-of-bounds and won't seek to pursue her, irrespective of how pretty or clever or anything else she is. The wedding ring doesn't hide any of this, but shows that she belongs to another.

Genesis 6:1 - 2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

1 Corinthians 11:5 - 10 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
That's then an argument that it was for a cultural sign of being married?
Veil was not worn by the unmarried women, and this varies through cultures as to how married women distinguish themselves.
(Nowadays, married woman wear wedding rings.)
Since married women are those who wore head covering in Jewish cultures, would that mean that angels were Ok-yed to lust after the unmarried ladies?
 
Mar 21, 2009
3,821
1,477
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New York
#17
1) Women's rights were culturally, socially & politically oppressed. Woman weren't allowed to partake in public debate. Paul's conundrum was the places he was establishing churches were under Rome's rule/control/laws. This problem speaks volumes to his writing that women remain silent or to get with their husband later.


2) Women of the time (culturally) wore a head covering. Not so much with the ladies of the night. No head covering, gold (or fancy) ribbons, pins, excessive makeup etc. were trade advertisements. Christianity was in it's infancy, the message was, this is God's house dress accordingly.
.
I agree with the tenor of your message. However at this point in time (always willing to change with new light) I would differ with a couple of points.
When 1 Cor 14 says that the women should be silent in the church and ask their husbands at home, it was specific to the context of disruption, disorder. He said three time to be silent in the church, the focus was what they were doing not their gender. 1) speaking in tongues without an interpreter, be silent in the church (male or female), 2) prophesying in turn, one should be silent if another has a word also, be silent in the church and let the other speak, taking turns, 3) the women asking their husbands questions disorderly, be silent in the church and ask them at home. The focus of the context was to do all things in decency and in order and there is no hint of being concerned about what the customs of Rome might have been. I don't think that is the intention of Pauls message and should not come into play here.

Point 2, I think he was speaking to their Jewish customs of the head covering as many among them were of Jewish background as in most of the churches even in Greek cities as he started this church by teaching in synagogues until he was cast out but had developed a following who then started a church. Nevertheless what he makes very clear is that he was using these arguments to make a point and then he says... 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. And by stating this he makes it clear that not only the church at Corinth but no churches follow the custom of head coverings. Yes, surprising that more people do not notice this. In rules of interpretation, one of the most important rules is immediate context. Immediate context is more important than cultural context.
So even though he himself makes a point about culture, whether it be Jewish or Roman is really not so important, because in the end the context tells us that the churches did not follow it. He was not advocating it to be followed. He was pointing to the culture as an illustration and just in case someone misunderstood his using the illustration to make his point he tells us the church does not follow this custom.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
1,358
808
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#18
That's then an argument that it was for a cultural sign of being married?
Veil was not worn by the unmarried women, and this varies through cultures as to how married women distinguish themselves.
(Nowadays, married woman wear wedding rings.)
Since married women are those who wore head covering in Jewish cultures, would that mean that angels were Ok-yed to lust after the unmarried ladies?
Lol. I don't think the angels were lusting, and I don't know exactly how it works. Just that there is more than one scriptural support to say that angels can fall for women, and head-covering has something to do with being considerate to them.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
909
306
63
#19
Hello Moses_Young,
I sent you a private message. FD