WORKS SALVATION

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Apr 30, 2016
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#62
The same way Peter knew the gentiles were saved--Acts 10:45-46.
Yes. That's a pretty good and obvious way!
There are other ways too.
There could be a marked difference in a person's life.
It's pretty obvious when a person says they love God and mean it.
MOST persons will NOT say they love God if they DON'T !!

It's like this about OSAS:

If you believe it, you need no proof..

If you don't believe it, no proof will be sufficient.

Sound familar? It could be applled to this also.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#64
Ooooh ! WHO ever said that our works make us worthy????
I've heard Roman Catholics say it. Here is a quote from a Roman Catholic that I was in a discussion with in regards to salvation:

"Either you do the works which Jesus describes as taking up your cross, or you are not worthy of salvation. You may not want to labour for God nor to "earn" God's benevolent gaze. But, that is your problem."

Then Ephesians 2:8 would be wrong!
Forgot Galatians 2:16, that's even MORE clear.
Amen! We do not earn the gift of eternal life. It is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. NOT BY WORKS.

It's my belief that God wants us to work for Him and when we believe in Jesus we do because we become one in spirit with Him... but what makes us worthy is the BELIEF, not the works.
Amen! Through FAITH, believers are accounted as worthy (Luke 20:35) and accounted as righteous because we believe in Him/trust in Him alone for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6), but not apart from the blood of Christ, worthy and righteous in of ourselves (Romans 3:24-26).
 
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PHart

Guest
#65
In post #32, I made this comment: *Now for those who teach we are saved by works (at least in part), I would like to ask them, "exactly how many works must you accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?"

I never said the fruit of the Spirit is vague. I asked Fran how many works are needed and she answered:

Whatever you can do.
Whatever God asks.
Whatever you do every day.
There is no quantity.
There is no quality.

And you say that's not a vague answer to my question?
Fran is not teaching a person earns their salvation by works. What she is showing above is that you confirm (not establish) your salvation when you can be characterized as someone who obeys God's commands (Matthew 5-7, Ephesians 3-6, Colossians 3-4, Romans 12, etc.). The church seems to be absolutely scared to death of this truth. Absolutely scared to death of it.


...and yes, it's an important point that the Spirit is manifesting.
Good, we're in agreement. And me, you, and Fran also agree that works do not earn salvation, not even partially. With all of us in agreement like this, how do you answer the question of how much does the Spirit have to manifest as a necessary part of a legitimate salvation? Do you agree that it's a matter of being characterized by walking in the Spirit, and more and more as we grow up into Christ?

Honestly, the main thing you need to do right now is realize that Fran is not teaching that works earn salvation, either wholly or partially. You seem to be applying this pre-determined bias to her posts, but if you just read what she writes without that bias that's looking for 'works salvation' behind every word she types you'll see that, apart from her non-OSAS belief, you're actually very much in agreement with her about works in salvation. And trust me, the fundamental Calvinist OSAS beliefs are a very little thing (only H-grace is the ridiculous OSAS doctrine, but let's not go there, lol).

I'm not attacking you. In fact, you're probably the only level-headed person on the opposing side of the works vs. faith argument. You're prolly the only one on the other side I enjoy talking to about this subject. When it comes down to it I think the only disagreement we actually have is that I believe true believers can stop believing, and you don't. That's not a biggie to me. At least you defend the believers obligation to continue believing to the very end, and being able to prove he's still believing by his works that his continued believing produces.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#66
I agree with this except one thing..... it IS about quality.

Col. 3
New Living Translation
Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.


New American Standard Bible

Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,


God's anointing upon us creates the highest quality.
I agree with the above Stephen.

But we can only do OUR BEST. Our best is all we can do.
What we do we do for God. This is works to me.
But if someone else cooks better than I do, what can I do?

THIS is what I mean.
We can only do our best...
And that will be OUR best quality.

When we work for God, we do better --- I DO very much agree with that.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#67
Funny thing about this ....Jesus never ran after the rich young ruler...you also must be deceived by Calvinist predestination
GREAT point !

We must follow Jesus of our own FREE WILL.

Love demands free will or it isn't love !

God will not FORCE us to be saved against our desire to be...
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#69
Do you believe speaking in tongues is a certain sign of salvation?
What about the person who never speaks in tongues, is that a certain sign he is not saved?
LOL
Not everyone who is saved speaks in tongues,
but everyone who speaks in tongues is saved.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#70
I understand just fine.

Strong's Concordance ergon: work
Original Word: ἔργον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ergon
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-gon)
Short Definition: work, labor, action, deed
Definition: work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.
HELPS Word-studies
2041 érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

Amen!

Do you truly believe that?

That sounds like Mormonism. In the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 25:23) we read - For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. In other words, do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you. Is that what we read in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO

Sounds vague to me.
Oh no, not Strong's!!

Why do you need Strong's so much?
We have enough trouble with the English.

So now I sound Mormon.
Never been to Utah.
Ooooh. That's a lie!!!
Bryce Canyon.
Everybody please go once.

Sounds vague to you MMD?

Know why?
Because, plain and simple you're AGAINST doing anything for God.

The mere word "works" scares you.

Why?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
15,108
987
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#71
Fran is not teaching a person earns their salvation by works. What she is showing above is that you confirm (not establish) your salvation when you can be characterized as someone who obeys God's commands (Matthew 5-7, Ephesians 3-6, Colossians 3-4, Romans 12, etc.). The church seems to be absolutely scared to death of this truth. Absolutely scared to death of it.
Why would the church be scared of that? Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Good, we're in agreement. And me, you, and Fran also agree that works do not earn salvation, not even partially. With all of us in agreement like this, how do you answer the question of how much does the Spirit have to manifest as a necessary part of a legitimate salvation? Do you agree that it's a matter of being characterized by walking in the Spirit, and more and more as we grow up into Christ?
My original question was to anyone who says that we are saved by works (at least in part). If we are truly saved, then the Spirit will manifest in us, yet we are not all at the same stage of Christian growth. All genuine Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

Honestly, the main thing you need to do right now is realize that Fran is not teaching that works earn salvation, either wholly or partially. You seem to be applying this pre-determined bias to her posts, but if you just read what she writes without that bias that's looking for 'works salvation' behind every word she types you'll see that, apart from her non-OSAS belief, you're actually very much in agreement with her about works in salvation. And trust me, the fundamental Calvinist OSAS beliefs are a very little thing (only H-grace is the ridiculous OSAS doctrine, but let's not go there, lol).
At times, it sounds like you are right about Fran, but at other times it doesn't (based on her posts).

I'm not attacking you. In fact, you're probably the only level-headed person on the opposing side of the works vs. faith argument. You're prolly the only one on the other side I enjoy talking to about this subject. When it comes down to it I think the only disagreement we actually have is that I believe true believers can stop believing, and you don't. That's not a biggie to me. At least you defend the believers obligation to continue believing to the very end, and being able to prove he's still believing by his works that his continued believing produces.
I appreciate your encouraging words here.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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#72
LOL
Not everyone who is saved speaks in tongues,
but everyone who speaks in tongues is saved.
I can count on one hand how many times I have spoken in tongues and even when I did I had no idea I was, it just happened.
 
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Persuaded

Guest
#73
Funny thing about this ....Jesus never ran after the rich young ruler...you also must be deceived by Calvinist predestination
The rich young ruler was not a son but a bastard.
Any person who can willfully sin or walk away from God and never feel God's chastisement was never a son, but a bastard.
Study Hebrews.
As far as Calvinist, they are Heretics.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
15,108
987
113
#75
Oh no, not Strong's!!

Why do you need Strong's so much?
We have enough trouble with the English.
:rolleyes:

So now I sound Mormon.
Never been to Utah.
Ooooh. That's a lie!!!
Bryce Canyon.
Everybody please go once.
What you "said" sounds like Mormonism. I'm not saying you are a Mormon.

Sounds vague to you MMD?

Know why?
Because, plain and simple you're AGAINST doing anything for God.

The mere word "works" scares you.

Why?
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.
 
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PHart

Guest
#76
Bryce Canyon.
Everybody please go once.
But I ain't never been outside of Podunk County yet!


Because, plain and simple you're AGAINST doing anything for God.

The mere word "works" scares you.

Why?
No, I think he's good with works in salvation.
He's scared of works in regard to earning salvation, and he should be, just like me and you are.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#77
In post #32, I made this comment: *Now for those who teach we are saved by works (at least in part), I would like to ask them, "exactly how many works must you accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?"

I never said the fruit of the Spirit is vague. I asked Fran how many works are needed and she answered:

Whatever you can do.
Whatever God asks.
Whatever you do every day.
There is no quantity.
There is no quality.

And you say that's not a vague answer to my question?

Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice (willful, habitual lifestyle, no repentance just bring it on, continuous action) such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I wasn't asking what works of faith look like and yes, it's an important point that the Spirit is manifesting.
Yes MMD,

You WERE asking what works of faith look like.
An incredible question to me, coming from someone who says they are born again and know our Lord and Savior.

It shows a complete misunderstanding of what God expects from you.
It shows a complete misunderstanding of what "works" is.
I've asked you why it's such a bad word to you and Others.

JESUS said we are TO DO, not ME.

And, then, you don't like my answer.
What did you want me to reply:

1. Feed two hungry people today.
2. Bring 3 shirts to the poor people down at Church.
3. Go visit 3 persons in prison this week.
4. Bring them each a bible.
5. Harold is sick. Go visit him. Bring him some chicken soup.


etc
etc

Would that have satisifed you more?

Seems to me YOU have much of catholicism left in you, not ME.
Let go of your silly rules and trust in Jesus.

I mean REALLY trust in Him.
Don't be afraid to work for Him and do your best in all you do.

If you trusted Jesus, you wouldn't be asking about quantity and quality.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,317
73
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#78
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(monetary,material): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
 
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PHart

Guest
#79
Oh ok, so I assume I won't get an answer then.
No, prolly not, lol.

Judging by her avatar and her language, I'm betting she probably is not characterized as one who has the Spirit of God in her as evidenced by what she does and says. But at least she had a good screen name.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,234
697
113
#80
I agree with this except one thing..... it IS about quality.

Col. 3
New Living Translation
Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people.


New American Standard Bible

Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,


God's anointing upon us creates the highest quality.
And I think that is what separates the sheep from the goats.
Doing it for the Lord because we are in him and he in us.
He has called us to do good works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.