WORKS SALVATION

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PHart

Guest
#82
Any person who can willfully sin or walk away from God and never feel God's chastisement was never a son, but a bastard.
...
As far as Calvinist, they are Heretics.
But that's a Calvinist argument.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#83
I've heard Roman Catholics say it. Here is a quote from a Roman Catholic that I was in a discussion with in regards to salvation:

"Either you do the works which Jesus describes as taking up your cross, or you are not worthy of salvation. You may not want to labour for God nor to "earn" God's benevolent gaze. But, that is your problem."

Amen! We do not earn the gift of eternal life. It is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. NOT BY WORKS.

Amen! Through FAITH, believers are accounted as worthy (Luke 20:35) and accounted as righteous because we believe in Him/trust in Him alone for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6), but not apart from the blood of Christ, worthy and righteous in of ourselves (Romans 3:24-26).
MMD

You have to stop talking to Catholics. They affect your mood too much !
Catholics do believe in some form of merit. No use geetting into it.
They are still saved by God's grace and mercy.

And as far as righteousness, of course we have no righeousness of our own.
We are imputed righteousness by Jesus.
By Him we are made righteous.
RIGHT WITH GOD.
That's all it means.

Please stop talking about Catholics with me. I don't know why you do this.
Leave them alone. That guy you were talking to is saved. Let him work. Who cares. He's saved if he believe in Jesus.
Talk to the ones who NEED SALVATION and do not know Jesus.
This is what I try to do.
PLENTY OF CATHOLICS AROUND HERE...if you know what I mean.
 
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PHart

Guest
#84
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
It's interesting that this is this very verse that got me out of feelings of condemnation about not doing enough for the Lord when I was about 2 or 3 years old in the Lord (I'm 31 years in the Lord now). Sounds counter intuitive, but it did.

What it did was force me to learn how to do the works that are pleasing to God and which are required by Him, and what those works actually are. I guess the problem is when people read verses like this in the Bible they do either one of two things: 1) they dismiss 'works' all the more and escape to an ear tickling teacher who tells them their works don't matter at all if they are truly saved, or 2) they
"learn what is pleasing to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:10 NASB) and they find peace and contentment and ease in the faith that 'justifies all by itself apart from works', yet which lives out the works that God will use to Judge people as being either a sheep or a goat on the Day of Wrath.
 
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PHart

Guest
#85
Why would the church be scared of that?
I'm guessing because they don't have works, or they are under a lot of self imposed condemnation about works, or are simply ignorant of what the works are that God requires in salvation, and how to do them in the new way of the Spirit. Or a combination of any of these.



Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
You and I know that, but I don't think the church at large does (the faith being substantiated by works part). Most in the church, it seems, are taught that works mean nada now that they are saved, not knowing that Christ will use their lives as the evidence of whether they go to the right as Christ believing, saved sheep, or go to the left as unbelieving goats. They can't grasp how that is not a works gospel when properly understood for the truth it is.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#86
But I ain't never been outside of Podunk County yet!

Well whatcha waitin' fer??


No, I think he's good with works in salvation.
He's scared of works in regard to earning salvation, and he should be, just like me and you are.
I don't understand how works could earn salvation...
I don't understand why works is a bad word...

I have a better verse for salvation.
Forget about Ephesians 2:8

Try
Galatians 2:16

That explains salvation better, in my opinion.


Galatians 2:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#87
No, prolly not, lol.

Judging by her avatar and her language, I'm betting she probably is not characterized as one who has the Spirit of God in her as evidenced by what she does and says. But at least she had a good screen name.
Still laughing...
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#88
It's interesting that this is this very verse that got me out of feelings of condemnation about not doing enough for the Lord when I was about 2 or 3 years old in the Lord (I'm 31 years in the Lord now). Sounds counter intuitive, but it did.

What it did was force me to learn how to do the works that are pleasing to God and which are required by Him, and what those works actually are. I guess the problem is when people read verses like this in the Bible they do either one of two things: 1) they dismiss 'works' all the more and escape to an ear tickling teacher who tells them their works don't matter at all if they are truly saved, or 2) they
"learn what is pleasing to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:10 NASB) and they find peace and contentment and ease in the faith that 'justifies all by itself apart from works', yet which lives out the works that God will use to Judge people as being either a sheep or a goat on the Day of Wrath.
Perfectly said.
This is TRULY resting in the Lord.
 
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PHart

Guest
#89
I don't understand how works could earn salvation...
And neither can everybody who's tried to earn their salvation by works. Those who've tried it, if they're honest, know without a doubt that you can not earn salvation by good works. It's what drove me to the cross. I knew I couldn't get from here to There. I wasn't good enough. I was at the mercy of God:

"‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other" (Luke 18:13-14 NASB)



I don't understand why works is a bad word...
I think it's because even genuinely saved Christians don't have a good education in what the works of God are and how to do them in the new way of the Spirit (as opposed to the old way of the written word--Romans 7:6).

Because I've been there and God brought me through it I seek to help others learn these truths, too, so they can find the life and liberty and peace that Christ died to give his people. The answer to the works issue is not to shun works altogether, as the church at large does. The answer is learn from God how to know and do what pleases Him so you'll have peace and not fear Judgment. Not because doing what pleases him earns salvation, but because doing what pleases him shows you have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,234
697
113
#90
I don't understand how works could earn salvation...
I don't understand why works is a bad word...

I have a better verse for salvation.
Forget about Ephesians 2:8

Try
Galatians 2:16

That explains salvation better, in my opinion.


Galatians 2:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Works is not a bad word, it's how one interprets the meaning with the reason to the end.

Its only bad if the means of works are in order to be saved and not because we are saved.

The works that we do that God loves are those done in love to glorify him by loving him and others.
To me the first work that God asked/or done in us is to believe in Jesus.
in doing so we want to love God and others.
That being the case then these are good works and we can't call them bad.

ps crap is a bad word if used out if context as well.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
1,127
300
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#91
Hi all...I have no issues with the word works, Paul and the rest worked so hard going from place to place, if they did not do the work by the calling of God, then we would have nothing to debate about, nothing would be written if they decided to sit on their back side sunning in the sun :rolleyes:...When i serve the Lord i am working for Him, if i did not work to the calling of what God has called me do, my son in prison would still be among the living dead , but as it stands, my son is now growing in the Lord Praise God, just a thought...xox...
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
5,365
262
83
#92
so, I guess there was not enough of this in the bdf, so you moved it over to here??
 
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Depleted

Guest
#93
Ooooh ! WHO ever said that our works make us worthy????
Then Ephesians 2:8 would be wrong!
Forgot Galatians 2:16, that's even MORE clear.

It's my belief that God wants us to work for Him and when we believe in Jesus we do because we become one in spirit with Him... but what makes us worthy is the BELIEF, not the works.
Little problem in our ability to communicate with one another. You think we are worthy by belief. (Belief is the noun form of an action verb -- believe. So action = work. See? Kind of my problem with the work side. Although, good news, I lean more to doing something with salvation than just sitting there soaking up the grace, which, ultimately means on the works vs. grace argument, if those really were the only two choices, I do lean closer to work than grace. I'm just not into thinking we are saved to soak up what God gives us only. He saved us to do something with us.) I don't think we are worthy by anything other than Christ.
we = not worthy, never-ever.
Christ = he who made us worthy by his worthy.

Kind of stuck there. Kind of feels like we're in our cars face-to-face on a one lane bridge, and I've got no idea if either of us have back-up abilities. lol

So, let me hit the other stuff.
-- No -- I don't think any of our stories change on how we get there. I've never met anyone who had a story other than, "suddenly it made sense." It's that thingy in John 3, Jesus was talking about. There we were all nice and comfie in our darkness doing what we liked, when the Light hit us and changed us. Dink! (That moment in time when the Lord turns the light switch on.) i.e. "one way," "Jesus," "the Light."

-- Please make sure you're sitting down, not drinking anything, and breathe deeply even after you read the rest, because I fear I may choke you or cause you to faint over what I'm about to say.

Okay, so breathing deep and the coffee out of your mouth?

Ready?

Here goes...

Yup! I agree with you on the perfect/not perfect thingy.

Are you alright? Still breathing? (Not hurting yourself laughing? lol) Sorry, it happens. Sometimes that communication thingy works and we arrive at the same thought.


-- And don't sip that coffee yet, because that wasn't the last time we're agreeing. You have missed something going on in BDF. I know, common knowledge has it BDF is a good place to argue, but it has changed in the last 1-2 years. Not only is it mainly for arguing, but it has been modified in what the arguments must be about. Read the sticky above the forum about hypergrace. What has changed is a complete disregard for the term. Might as well use the word pleasal, because there is no desire to understand the term, but, instead, it was manipulated to fit into WoF beliefs, and anyone arguing against that are those who are forced out. Don't understand the word, and you're golden. Don't like Calvinists and you're golden. Don't know what's going on and you're golden. Don't like studying the Word and your golden. BUT the second you say anything that can even remotely be considered knowledgeable or an independent thought, or heaven forbid, related to God and his word, you risk life, limb, and/or banned. It's worse than ever specifically because it's been modified to be that.

On the other hand, I think you might be confusing salvation with sanctification. You're right, Jesus already saved. Past tense. But sanctification is setting us apart and preparing us to be his holy vessels. (Present future tense, since it's ongoing.) That's a process, and one he continues to do to us. He instilled himself into us so we are willing (sometimes at least. I've had moments when I wasn't, but he didn't stop. I just got a ride in the belly of a fish rather than on a ship), but it's still his work in us. And, yes, his work in us drives us to do his work, but it's always his work driving us. Kind of like God's rebuilding our motor, and we are used to see if we're working yet. He turns the key to see if that part works right yet. The part does have to work, but the part isn't the reason for the work. The repairer is the reason for the work.

(Did that make sense? That time I don't know if my words got through.)

-- I see no thin line between cause and effect. I do see a difference in OT and NT. Both are contracts. Two parties agreeing to do something they want done. (Both times it's God will have himself a people who will worship and love him forever, while we get God's love and care.) The difference in the contracts is who the two parties are. OT, God was one party and people were the other party. Well, people reneged on their side of the contract so often, the contract was no longer binding. So God made a new contract for the same purpose but got a different one to sign the other side. Father on one side of the contract. Jesus on the other side. No one reneged. God keeps his own word. We still don't keep the covenant. So, still cause and effect, and not a thin line. Which leads me to, I don't get why you think it is a thin line.


Eventually, we're gonna have to figure out what to do as we sit face-to-face on that one lane bridge, but are we getting any closer to understanding the rest of what each other believes?

Am I hearing you okay? (Because, honestly! Not being heard is the most annoying thing to me too. lol)
 
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Depleted

Guest
#94
I don't know who John McArthur is.

Do you mean that GOD HAS US SIN...
or do you mean that God ALLOWS us to sin?

Big difference. I think you mean the second.

As far as needing Jesus...
What exactly did we need Jesus for?

Maybe that's a thread??
We are sinners because we were born that way and elevated it into an art form and science. It works for us. God does one of two things two us about that. He'll either harden our heart to keep sinning more and more without the conscious to think that might not be a good idea. Or he saves us. Either way, God does that, not us.

He hardened the Pharoah's heart. (example of a specific person in the Bible.) He also tells how he hardens hearts in Romans 1. And, if you read it closely, (versus reading into it "God hates homosexuals"), you see the entire list of sins we do -- all of us. God does that!

He's also the one who saves us. That's what we need -- salvation -- and that's what Jesus does, not we do. We NEED Jesus. Without him we can't be saved and without him we can't be sanctified.

AND without him, the world becomes Sodom and Gomorrah. He also decrease that happens. He told Abraham something interesting. He promised Abraham a land that Abraham wasn't getting because the sins of the Amorites are not complete. (Gen. 15:16) God will not destroy a people until they're sin is complete, but he makes plans to destroy countries for their sins. He is sovereign.

Gonna end here. Hubby is in the garden making turkey burgers. lol BBL
 
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Depleted

Guest
#95
I've heard Roman Catholics say it. Here is a quote from a Roman Catholic that I was in a discussion with in regards to salvation:

"Either you do the works which Jesus describes as taking up your cross, or you are not worthy of salvation. You may not want to labour for God nor to "earn" God's benevolent gaze. But, that is your problem."

Amen! We do not earn the gift of eternal life. It is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. NOT BY WORKS.

Amen! Through FAITH, believers are accounted as worthy (Luke 20:35) and accounted as righteous because we believe in Him/trust in Him alone for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6), but not apart from the blood of Christ, worthy and righteous in of ourselves (Romans 3:24-26).
Ah! That might explain my proclivity to hate any hint of works salvation. I grew up RCC.
 
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Depleted

Guest
#96
GREAT point !

We must follow Jesus of our own FREE WILL.

Love demands free will or it isn't love !

God will not FORCE us to be saved against our desire to be...


Biblically speaking, prove that. Because I can prove that's not true.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
1,127
300
83
56
#98
Little problem in our ability to communicate with one another. You think we are worthy by belief. (Belief is the noun form of an action verb -- believe. So action = work. See? Kind of my problem with the work side. Although, good news, I lean more to doing something with salvation than just sitting there soaking up the grace, which, ultimately means on the works vs. grace argument, if those really were the only two choices, I do lean closer to work than grace. I'm just not into thinking we are saved to soak up what God gives us only. He saved us to do something with us.) I don't think we are worthy by anything other than Christ.
we = not worthy, never-ever.
Christ = he who made us worthy by his worthy.

Kind of stuck there. Kind of feels like we're in our cars face-to-face on a one lane bridge, and I've got no idea if either of us have back-up abilities. lol

So, let me hit the other stuff.
-- No -- I don't think any of our stories change on how we get there. I've never met anyone who had a story other than, "suddenly it made sense." It's that thingy in John 3, Jesus was talking about. There we were all nice and comfie in our darkness doing what we liked, when the Light hit us and changed us. Dink! (That moment in time when the Lord turns the light switch on.) i.e. "one way," "Jesus," "the Light."

-- Please make sure you're sitting down, not drinking anything, and breathe deeply even after you read the rest, because I fear I may choke you or cause you to faint over what I'm about to say.

Okay, so breathing deep and the coffee out of your mouth?

Ready?

Here goes...

Yup! I agree with you on the perfect/not perfect thingy.

Are you alright? Still breathing? (Not hurting yourself laughing? lol) Sorry, it happens. Sometimes that communication thingy works and we arrive at the same thought.


-- And don't sip that coffee yet, because that wasn't the last time we're agreeing. You have missed something going on in BDF. I know, common knowledge has it BDF is a good place to argue, but it has changed in the last 1-2 years. Not only is it mainly for arguing, but it has been modified in what the arguments must be about. Read the sticky above the forum about hypergrace. What has changed is a complete disregard for the term. Might as well use the word pleasal, because there is no desire to understand the term, but, instead, it was manipulated to fit into WoF beliefs, and anyone arguing against that are those who are forced out. Don't understand the word, and you're golden. Don't like Calvinists and you're golden. Don't know what's going on and you're golden. Don't like studying the Word and your golden. BUT the second you say anything that can even remotely be considered knowledgeable or an independent thought, or heaven forbid, related to God and his word, you risk life, limb, and/or banned. It's worse than ever specifically because it's been modified to be that.

On the other hand, I think you might be confusing salvation with sanctification. You're right, Jesus already saved. Past tense. But sanctification is setting us apart and preparing us to be his holy vessels. (Present future tense, since it's ongoing.) That's a process, and one he continues to do to us. He instilled himself into us so we are willing (sometimes at least. I've had moments when I wasn't, but he didn't stop. I just got a ride in the belly of a fish rather than on a ship), but it's still his work in us. And, yes, his work in us drives us to do his work, but it's always his work driving us. Kind of like God's rebuilding our motor, and we are used to see if we're working yet. He turns the key to see if that part works right yet. The part does have to work, but the part isn't the reason for the work. The repairer is the reason for the work.

(Did that make sense? That time I don't know if my words got through.)

-- I see no thin line between cause and effect. I do see a difference in OT and NT. Both are contracts. Two parties agreeing to do something they want done. (Both times it's God will have himself a people who will worship and love him forever, while we get God's love and care.) The difference in the contracts is who the two parties are. OT, God was one party and people were the other party. Well, people reneged on their side of the contract so often, the contract was no longer binding. So God made a new contract for the same purpose but got a different one to sign the other side. Father on one side of the contract. Jesus on the other side. No one reneged. God keeps his own word. We still don't keep the covenant. So, still cause and effect, and not a thin line. Which leads me to, I don't get why you think it is a thin line.


Eventually, we're gonna have to figure out what to do as we sit face-to-face on that one lane bridge, but are we getting any closer to understanding the rest of what each other believes?

Am I hearing you okay? (Because, honestly! Not being heard is the most annoying thing to me too. lol)
Hi Depleted...I really enjoyed reading your post :)...I like your explanation ...xox...
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#99
Oh no, not Strong's!!

Why do you need Strong's so much?
We have enough trouble with the English.

So now I sound Mormon.
Never been to Utah.
Ooooh. That's a lie!!!
Bryce Canyon.
Everybody please go once.

Sounds vague to you MMD?

Know why?
Because, plain and simple you're AGAINST doing anything for God.

The mere word "works" scares you.

Why?
Really? Do you know Dan? Because the Dan I know is NOT against doing anything for God.

Please, please, don't lower yourself to Meggio's level.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,615
1,134
113
LOL
Not everyone who is saved speaks in tongues,
but everyone who speaks in tongues is saved.
is everything that's called "speaking in tongues" really "speaking in tongues" ?