WORKS SALVATION
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re: that particular man,
and as to whether he "felt" anything ((i'm not sure i see how Christ's words to him were "chastising" .. compare how He spoke to, for example, the Pharisees for examples of "chastising speech" IMO.. but hey, that's just semantics))..
sounds to me as if that man believed what Christ said -- if he had rejected Him, why would he be troubled by what he had heard?
Christ's disciples seemed to lack faith when this took place. immediately afterward is when Jesus told them,
Jesus looked at him and loved him.
(Mark 10:21)
(Mark 10:21)
and as to whether he "felt" anything ((i'm not sure i see how Christ's words to him were "chastising" .. compare how He spoke to, for example, the Pharisees for examples of "chastising speech" IMO.. but hey, that's just semantics))..
at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving
(Mark 10:22)
(Mark 10:22)
sounds to me as if that man believed what Christ said -- if he had rejected Him, why would he be troubled by what he had heard?
Christ's disciples seemed to lack faith when this took place. immediately afterward is when Jesus told them,
With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.
(Mark 10:27)
when i put all these things together, for whatever reason i seem to see a picture that is radically different from popular Christian opinion about this man's standing before God.(Mark 10:27)
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that, in particular, is written all over the Bible.
Jesus literally said to His disciples, "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16)
in Revelation it is said that those with the Lamb are "the chosen" -- not "the ones who chose" (Revelation 17:14)
in Ephesians Paul writes that "He has chosen us in Him" (Ephesians 1:4)
Peter calls us "a chosen people" (1 Peter 1:2, 2:9)
God says throughout the Old Testament that Israel was chosen by Him, not the other way around (ex. Deuteronomy 7:6)
so there's this "great cloud of witnesses" . . .
Jesus literally said to His disciples, "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16)
in Revelation it is said that those with the Lamb are "the chosen" -- not "the ones who chose" (Revelation 17:14)
in Ephesians Paul writes that "He has chosen us in Him" (Ephesians 1:4)
Peter calls us "a chosen people" (1 Peter 1:2, 2:9)
God says throughout the Old Testament that Israel was chosen by Him, not the other way around (ex. Deuteronomy 7:6)
so there's this "great cloud of witnesses" . . .
He's the one who is worthy 
not any of us
not any of us
So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say,
‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’
(Luke 17:10)
And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”
(Revelation 4:9-11)
‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’
(Luke 17:10)
And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”
(Revelation 4:9-11)
PHart,
I highlighted a couple of sentences above. I really believe this is the Whole issue.
Since I don't go to Church there (this keyboard capitalizes Church -- pay no attention) over there anymore, it's difficult to know what's going on.
I do get an inkling, however from these posts and threads.
I too agree that if we could see how wretched we are and learn to depend on Jesus' salvation and how we are to truly walk with Him, then we will know true freedom.
"Oh wretched man that I am...who will rescue me from this body of Death".
Jesus is our Savior, our rescuer, but He is also our Lord, our Teacher, our Master.
We should learn what we can from Him and not say that it's not necessary because HE already did it all, as if Learning from God is a bad think ---
Jesus did His part. We also have a part in our salvation.
I think some don't know about sanctification or maybe they can't accept the responsibility.
True freedom is knowing HOW Holy God is,
knowing how we will fail many times,
and knowing He will save us every time
...not because of the works we do which also please Him,
but because we've accepted to follow THE SON, Jesus.
I highlighted a couple of sentences above. I really believe this is the Whole issue.
Since I don't go to Church there (this keyboard capitalizes Church -- pay no attention) over there anymore, it's difficult to know what's going on.
I do get an inkling, however from these posts and threads.
I too agree that if we could see how wretched we are and learn to depend on Jesus' salvation and how we are to truly walk with Him, then we will know true freedom.
"Oh wretched man that I am...who will rescue me from this body of Death".
Jesus is our Savior, our rescuer, but He is also our Lord, our Teacher, our Master.
We should learn what we can from Him and not say that it's not necessary because HE already did it all, as if Learning from God is a bad think ---
Jesus did His part. We also have a part in our salvation.
I think some don't know about sanctification or maybe they can't accept the responsibility.
True freedom is knowing HOW Holy God is,
knowing how we will fail many times,
and knowing He will save us every time
...not because of the works we do which also please Him,
but because we've accepted to follow THE SON, Jesus.
Hi Fran...Maybe you could stop for a moment and understand that many people are on different levels in their journey...I can only imagine it can be frustrating when you are yourself further in the word with more knowledge then those who are just beginning and have not come round to a better understanding but i do believe that as long as people know that Jesus died to save us from our sins and we believe it with sincerity, then this post is just going to end up like the one you have moved from in the bdf...I can see it is going to turn nasty and names getting called, or people like yourself accusing Dan in his post, that`s wrong and should not be said...We all have growing to do, this will never stop, but we all have our own paces...xox...
but i do believe that as long as people know that Jesus died to save us from our sins and we believe it with sincerity, then this post is just going to end up like the one you have moved from in the bdf...I can see it is going to turn nasty and names getting called, or people like yourself accusing Dan in his post, that`s wrong and should not be said...We all have growing to do, this will never stop, but we all have our own paces...xox...I agree with all of the above.
But I was sure called bad in another thread I was in.
How many times did I state that works do not save?
So I think what was bothersome was when I said that works are required after our salvation.
How can this be wrong???
Are we supposed to NOT do any good works?
How many times did I say works are to glorify God when it was stated that those who work do so to glorify themselves !!
I think we need to get over the fear of using words like works.
If someone desires to do nothing for God, or has a problem with what Jesus said, perhaps it's the responsibility of the Church, as PHart has stated.
Is this going on by you?
I read in the New Testament how we are to do good works.
WE ARE ALREADY SAVED.... so how could anyone talk about being saved by works???
And if we do not do good works, how can we say we're following Jesus when this is what God requires?
I'm just going to post some verses from the New Testament.
Not enough room if I include the O.T.
*************************************************************************
Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Matthew 5:38-48
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Luke 6:27-36
"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.
1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
Psalm 34:12-16
Who is the man who desires life And loves length of days that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.
Hebrews 13:16
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
1 Peter 2:20
For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
1 Timothy 6:17-19
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
2 Timothy 2:20-21
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
James 2:14-21
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
James 3:13
Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
Acts 9:36
Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.
Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Colossians 1:10-12
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
1 Peter 2:13-15
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
But I was sure called bad in another thread I was in.
How many times did I state that works do not save?
So I think what was bothersome was when I said that works are required after our salvation.
How can this be wrong???
Are we supposed to NOT do any good works?
How many times did I say works are to glorify God when it was stated that those who work do so to glorify themselves !!
I think we need to get over the fear of using words like works.
If someone desires to do nothing for God, or has a problem with what Jesus said, perhaps it's the responsibility of the Church, as PHart has stated.
Is this going on by you?
I read in the New Testament how we are to do good works.
WE ARE ALREADY SAVED.... so how could anyone talk about being saved by works???
And if we do not do good works, how can we say we're following Jesus when this is what God requires?
I'm just going to post some verses from the New Testament.
Not enough room if I include the O.T.
*************************************************************************
Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Matthew 5:38-48
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Luke 6:27-36
"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.
1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
Psalm 34:12-16
Who is the man who desires life And loves length of days that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.
Hebrews 13:16
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
1 Peter 2:20
For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
1 Timothy 6:17-19
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
2 Timothy 2:20-21
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
James 2:14-21
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
James 3:13
Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
Acts 9:36
Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.
Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Colossians 1:10-12
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
1 Peter 2:13-15
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
Hi all...I have no issues with the word works, Paul and the rest worked so hard going from place to place, if they did not do the work by the calling of God, then we would have nothing to debate about, nothing would be written if they decided to sit on their back side sunning in the sun ...When i serve the Lord i am working for Him, if i did not work to the calling of what God has called me do, my son in prison would still be among the living dead , but as it stands, my son is now growing in the Lord Praise God, just a thought...xox...
...When i serve the Lord i am working for Him, if i did not work to the calling of what God has called me do, my son in prison would still be among the living dead , but as it stands, my son is now growing in the Lord Praise God, just a thought...xox...
Great point about the Apostles!
He's the one who is worthy
not any of us
not any of us
So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say,
‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’
(Luke 17:10)
And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”
(Revelation 4:9-11)
‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’
(Luke 17:10)
And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”
(Revelation 4:9-11)
Hi Fran...Maybe you could stop for a moment and understand that many people are on different levels in their journey...I can only imagine it can be frustrating when you are yourself further in the word with more knowledge then those who are just beginning and have not come round to a better understanding but i do believe that as long as people know that Jesus died to save us from our sins and we believe it with sincerity, then this post is just going to end up like the one you have moved from in the bdf...I can see it is going to turn nasty and names getting called, or people like yourself accusing Dan in his post, that`s wrong and should not be said...We all have growing to do, this will never stop, but we all have our own paces...xox...
but i do believe that as long as people know that Jesus died to save us from our sins and we believe it with sincerity, then this post is just going to end up like the one you have moved from in the bdf...I can see it is going to turn nasty and names getting called, or people like yourself accusing Dan in his post, that`s wrong and should not be said...We all have growing to do, this will never stop, but we all have our own paces...xox...
I agree with what you've said, but OTOH, I can't change my way of speaking so that EVERYONE will understand what I'm saying.
There was a sign in a little deli where I used to shop years ago... it said:
"We can't please everyone, but we try".
Dan and I have been speaking a long time and we can't seem to get together on meanings although I'm pretty sure we probably agree on most things.
I have been told by some that obeying God is not necessary because Jesus has done it all.
Depleted is too intelligent for her own good !! But I do think we agree on 98% of everything and it's just Language that is causing a very little problem.
I've often said that spiritual matters are the most difficult to talk about.
We each understand God in a way that HE has created especially for us. Not for the big stuff, but for those little inconsequrential things that are of no importance but help us to feel close to Him and to understand Him.
In the BIG stuff we should agree. How does anyone not agree with all those verses I just posted to Bill?
It's the Word of God saying work is needed, not me!
So I agree with you that we are each at a different level. It's only natural. Some never even pass a certain level, they're still saved because it's Jesus who saves us, not us.
If this thread does not remain civil and with no name-calling, I personally will close it down in a NY minute!
It's good to have you here. I enjoy talking about God --- not arguing.
Hi Fran,
Did you leave the works thread? I haven't noticed because I'm not on there enough. It's a fast paced thread so I can't keep up with it.
Did you leave the works thread? I haven't noticed because I'm not on there enough. It's a fast paced thread so I can't keep up with it.
Yes, I did leave that thread.
I find it useless to keep arguing the same thing over and over.
I was basically there for those reading along --- not because I thought I could change anybody's mind -which I was told BTW.
It's necessary for those reading along to see both sides.
But I doubt I'll be going back.
And, yes, it moves very fast and many posts are missed and never answered.
P.S. I like your signature line. it pretty much says it all.
Sure they keep us saved.
How?
If GOD, who is GOD, says that I have the obligation to do good deeds, and I don't do those good deeds -- what does that say?
It says I DON'T CARE what God thinks, wants, requires, etc.
IF I don't care what God wants, what kind of relationship do I have with Him??
I was told that works are NOT NECESSARY because Jesus has done it all.
JESUS DID HIS PART.
What about our part?
God Always demanded obedience. Did He change His mind in the New Testament, which equals the New Covenant?
NO! God is the same, He still demands obedience.
This obedience requires us to do good deeds, as I posted in all those verses above.
It's not me saying it, it's Jesus, Paul, Timothy, Peter, James.
If we DO NOT HAVE WORKS...
Our faith is dead...
James
I fail to see why this is difficult to understand...
Why do YOU think it's maybe not necessary to do works to keep saved?
Do you wish to obey God?
(of course, I do need to make clear that I DO NOT believe in eternal security. I believe we are only secure for as long as we are IN CHRIST).
How?
If GOD, who is GOD, says that I have the obligation to do good deeds, and I don't do those good deeds -- what does that say?
It says I DON'T CARE what God thinks, wants, requires, etc.
IF I don't care what God wants, what kind of relationship do I have with Him??
I was told that works are NOT NECESSARY because Jesus has done it all.
JESUS DID HIS PART.
What about our part?
God Always demanded obedience. Did He change His mind in the New Testament, which equals the New Covenant?
NO! God is the same, He still demands obedience.
This obedience requires us to do good deeds, as I posted in all those verses above.
It's not me saying it, it's Jesus, Paul, Timothy, Peter, James.
If we DO NOT HAVE WORKS...
Our faith is dead...
James
I fail to see why this is difficult to understand...
Why do YOU think it's maybe not necessary to do works to keep saved?
Do you wish to obey God?
(of course, I do need to make clear that I DO NOT believe in eternal security. I believe we are only secure for as long as we are IN CHRIST).
Hi...Just come across reading in Thessalonians 2:1...Is Paul talking about people who do believe in verse 8 as well as those who do not...Only people who believe would know to obey the gospel, so is he talking about they new it but turned away from it, if so, then am i understanding correctly that God will destroy them in the final day even though it seems to say that some were saved, am confused now ...xox...
...xox...