Baptism and holy spirit

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Mar 28, 2016
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That is the claim of cessationists.

Its what the word of God informs us . New knowledge has ceased because God is no longer brining any new revelations. The Elect will not be deceived by the lying signs and wonders gospel coming from the father of lies. Because the elect will not go above that which is written. He warns them before time.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Acts 2:38 doesn't seem to me to say 'you must desire and ask for the Holy Spirit'

It says repent and be baptized.
And it says you will be given the Spirit.
Doesn't mention 'ask for' ??

Also seems the Greek doesn't say 'then' you will be given; it says 'and'
Exactly............a one off event.............some go to seed on a particular religious event and then peddle "truths" not found within the "truth"
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Its what the word of God informs us . New knowledge has ceased because God is no longer brining any new revelations. The Elect will not be deceived by the lying signs and wonders gospel coming from the father of lies. Because the elect will not go above that which is written. He warns them before time.
New knowledge has ceased because God is no longer bringing any new revelations???? God tells me stuff all the time - driving in my car, he may direct me in another direction to avoid an accident. He lets me know what I should pray for in a given situation in a person's life. He tells me lots of things! In fact, I believe that is what enables me to walk by the Spirit. Sometimes our situations are not directly answered in God's word and therefore, we ask and he speaks to us - revealing to us what we need to do in that situation/circumstance.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Here's a list of things specifically referred to as gifts:

"6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. "-Romans 12:6-8


All of these are gifts. And since prophecy is a gift then we know tongues is too (see 1 Corinthians 14:1-5).
What do we do with - "BUT the manifestation of the Spirit is given to all for the common good." . . . Manifestation is NOT the same as a gift. Gifts are given individually - those gifts listed in Romans 12:6-8 are the "distributions" in 1 Cor. 12:4,5 as are the gift ministries listed in Ephesians 4:11,12. No one is saying that there are not gifts for there are many gifts, e.g. some may be gifted in edifying the body, one may be gifted with teaching within the body, one may be gifted in serving the body - But there is a distinction between a manifestation and a gift. A manifestation is a perceptible, outward or visible expression of what we have received inwardly - the gift of holy spirit.

1 Cor. 12 starts out: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. . . gifts is in italics and therefore added. The word "spiritual" is pneumatikos meaning spiritual things, spiritual matters or things of God. We are not to be ignorant of these things . . . v4 - there are different kinds of gifts but the same Spirit distributing them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work (energizing). v4 is speaking of gifts, v5 is speaking of service and v6 is saying that it is God that energizes each. Then v7, the subject changes to "manifestation of the Spirit given to each believer for the common good" and list the manifestations - nine in all.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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I do not believe the long ending of Mark is authentic.
If Mark 16:15-20 is not authentic then what else of Mark is not authentic?
What else is also not authentic? Hebrews? James? 1Corinthians?

And if Mark 16:15-20 is not authentic then how can I trust the word of God as being truth?
How can God claim that the scriptures are inspired and Spirit breathed; inerrant?

And in any case many a good Bible scholar have proved that the so-called long ending of Mark is
authentic; is true. God is not a Mormon.

Only unbelievers have a problem with Mark 16:15-20.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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Angel tongues is hyperbole not literal. Tongues are languages not ecstatic utterances. Pagans not Christians spoke in ecstatic utterances.

You are reading into the scriptures that which you want to see not what is actually written. You reject the OT basis for the NT references.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I agree that he was using hyperbole in that instance. He did this same thing in another place, where he said it anyone comes preaching some different good news to you, even if it's an angel, don't listen. We don't run with this hyperbole and say that when someone preaches a different gospel it means they are an angel, and neither should we run with his hyperbole in another place and say that men can speak the language of angels.

i it's very odd to see this, where someone makes an odd supposition from one hyperbolic statement and runs w onky with it and insists on it despite having no other witness. You don't know quite what to say to someone who proceeds in that manner with Paul's words...
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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I disagree. It simply states "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...". You do not believe in speaking in tongues, so you declare it to be hyperbole.


God confusing the languages at Babel has absolutely NOTHING to do with the manifestation of speaking in tongues.
Actually...it kind of does have to do with the tow er of Babel and confusing of language...in that it's a reversal of that...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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If Mark 16:15-20 is not authentic then what else of Mark is not authentic?
What else is also not authentic? Hebrews? James? 1Corinthians?

And if Mark 16:15-20 is not authentic then how can I trust the word of God as being truth?
How can God claim that the scriptures are inspired and Spirit breathed; inerrant?

And in any case many a good Bible scholar have proved that the so-called long ending of Mark is
authentic; is true. God is not a Mormon.

Only unbelievers have a problem with Mark 16:15-20.
The same can be said concerning the words cease, vanish and fail..............as well as the fact that the only church that had issues with the aforementioned subject was spiritually immature with some 15 errors......and the fact that when Mark was written the bible as a whole was not COMPLETE.....
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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it is not pagan that is your opinon you have NO biblical proof of your claim. The tongues spoken in the church is not pagan. The roots of it are nmot pagan they are Biblical . again you try to use pagan teachings to discredit a biblical work of the Holy Spirit . again show me where in the Bible one example in the NEW Testamant of pagan tongues .
I clearly stated that ecstatic utterances are not biblical tongues. You have added to what I have said. I never said that tongues spoken in the body of Christ are pagan. I only stated that pagans spoke in ecstatic utterances. Vain repetitions of ecstatic utterances to be more precise.

I resent that you imply that I am attempting to discredit the Holy Spirit and the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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It's important to carefully read posts. I am guilty of jumping the gun and have learned to ask a question rather than state what a person is stating. :) I will most often say: do you mean/intend to say thus and thus? Because what I am hearing them to be saying is often not what they are intending to say!
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Its what the word of God informs us . New knowledge has ceased because God is no longer brining any new revelations. The Elect will not be deceived by the lying signs and wonders gospel coming from the father of lies. Because the elect will not go above that which is written. He warns them before time.

thing is, the Bible does not say 'new knowledge; it says simply 'knowledge'

must knowledge be a revelation? I don't think so. perhaps over spiritualization of things might result in that conclusion

the Bible actually says knowledge will pass away. obviously, it has not passed away

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. I Cor 13:8
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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thing is, the Bible does not say 'new knowledge; it says simply 'knowledge'

must knowledge be a revelation? I don't think so. perhaps over spiritualization of things might result in that conclusion

the Bible actually says knowledge will pass away. obviously, it has not passed away

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. I Cor 13:8
The knowledge spoken of in this verse is the knowledge that Jesus had which caused the Pharisees to wonder. They said how is it that this man letters.

Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Luke 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I clearly stated that ecstatic utterances are not biblical tongues. You have added to what I have said. I never said that tongues spoken in the body of Christ are pagan. I only stated that pagans spoke in ecstatic utterances. Vain repetitions of ecstatic utterances to be more precise.

I resent that you imply that I am attempting to discredit the Holy Spirit and the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
the word ecstatic utterance is not the context of Acts 2 or 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14. you have said in the past in fact you also have in the past made that very connection . If your were not why bring up pagan practices when they are not in context to the Biblical tongues? I’m sorry you have resentment “Vain repetitions of ecstatic utterances to be more precise.”



Is not what tongues is nor did you come up with that sentence from the Bible. It is clear you formulated and coined that phrase from something other than the Word of God. If you have an opinon of pagan tongues it was not founded in the context of the bible or in the record of all the Holy Spirit has done . I dod nnot think you even know what ecstatic utterances are.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
The knowledge spoken of in this verse is the knowledge that Jesus had which caused the Pharisees to wonder. They said how is it that this man letters.

Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Luke 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
well that is what all cessationists say and apparently you in particular :rolleyes:

you find that Jesus has passed? what are you even talking about!

I would say 'good luck' with that explanation but as a believer in Christ, I don't believe in 'luck'

so to what purpose do you disavow what is plainly written? and then confuse with your obscure misuse of quoting Jesus' words regarding the Holy Spirit?

do you have any new objections? this one is worn out and still does not hold water
 
Feb 21, 2012
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I agree that he was using hyperbole in that instance. He did this same thing in another place, where he said it anyone comes preaching some different good news to you, even if it's an angel, don't listen. We don't run with this hyperbole and say that when someone preaches a different gospel it means they are an angel, and neither should we run with his hyperbole in another place and say that men can speak the language of angels.

i it's very odd to see this, where someone makes an odd supposition from one hyperbolic statement and runs w onky with it and insists on it despite having no other witness. You don't know quite what to say to someone who proceeds in that manner with Paul's words...
hyperbole - exaggerated statements or claims not to be taken literally - Why should we take this statement, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (love), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" - as being an hyperbole?

Is this the verse you were talking about when you stated "He did this same thing in another place,' 2 Cor. 11:4 - For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with . . . This is also an hyperbole?

I don't see where either one is an exaggerated statement nor something that can not be taken literally . . . . just saying. :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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the word ecstatic utterance is not the context of Acts 2 or 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14. you have said in the past in fact you also have in the past made that very connection . If your were not why bring up pagan practices when they are not in context to the Biblical tongues? I’m sorry you have resentment “Vain repetitions of ecstatic utterances to be more precise.”



Is not what tongues is nor did you come up with that sentence from the Bible. It is clear you formulated and coined that phrase from something other than the Word of God. If you have an opinon of pagan tongues it was not founded in the context of the bible or in the record of all the Holy Spirit has done . I dod nnot think you even know what ecstatic utterances are.
Mt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Since you are convinced I don't know please tell me how you define ecstatic utterances.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
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The knowledge spoken of in this verse is the knowledge that Jesus had which caused the Pharisees to wonder. They said how is it that this man letters.

Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Luke 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The "knowledge" spoken of in 1 Cor. 13:8 has to do with another one of the manifestations of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12:8-10 - message of knowledge . . . as are the other two things listed - prophecies, tongues - if we are to keep all things in context.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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well that is what all cessationists say and apparently you in particular :rolleyes:

you find that Jesus has passed? what are you even talking about!

I would say 'good luck' with that explanation but as a believer in Christ, I don't believe in 'luck'

so to what purpose do you disavow what is plainly written? and then confuse with your obscure misuse of quoting Jesus' words regarding the Holy Spirit?

do you have any new objections? this one is worn out and still does not hold water
It is a bit self serving to make knowledge of 1 Cor 13 all knowledge.

One must keep in mind that the apostles and disciples did not have the benefit of a codified canon at the time they walked on the earth. They had the OT which they were able to use to persuade men that Jesus was the Messiah He claimed to be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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hyperbole - exaggerated statements or claims not to be taken literally - Why should we take this statement, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (love), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" - as being an hyperbole?

Is this the verse you were talking about when you stated "He did this same thing in another place,' 2 Cor. 11:4 - For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with . . . This is also an hyperbole?

I don't see where either one is an exaggerated statement nor something that can not be taken literally . . . . just saying. :)
I was talking about where paul says to not listen to anyone with a different gospel than the one they'd heard. Paul says even if an angel from heaven preaches a different gospel to you, etc., etc. So I can't then go and say that when someone preaches a different gospel then they are an angel because paul said so!

He's basically saying: don't listen to any other gospel from any other man. In fact, even if an angel were to come and preach a different gospel, don't listen.

He uses the same hyperbolic device in the verse you give though. He's basically doing the same thing. Saying if I could speak every language there is on earth - heck, even if I could speak the language of angels, without love, it is useless.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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PB, it's like this:

My child acts up and I put him in a chair in the corner and I say: You don't get up until I tell you that you can. I don't care if your hair is on fire, you sit there. In fact, I don't care if a bear comes into the room, you don't move. It's hyperbole. I do not mean for him to think a bear will come into the house or his hair will catch fire.