Oh goody another OSAS thread!

It is not a straw man to say salvation is a gift, It is fact.

The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life (salvation) in Jesus Christ our lord.

That is scripture. not a persons idea to fit some doctrinal position.

(Sigh) I am not under the law of Moses, I do not believe that our works earn salvation, and you bringing in that passage has nothing to do with it. And yes, the prize and the gift are the same thing. It is a gift because our obedience cannot earn it, and a prize because we met the criteria that God has chosen to give the gift to, because He does not give it to everyone, He chooses to give it to those who run the race, who fight the good fight, who obey Him till the end. God's deciding factor on who He gives it to can be anything that cannot earn it- which is already stated is obedience.

It is impossible to earn it with works- therefore God can have us work all He wants because works are not a currency that can be used to purchase grace. That would be like trying to buy a mansion with leaves. A leaf cannot purchase anything, however if a rich man said he will give mansions to those with leaves, then we can take him leaves to receive our prize. If you can't understand that, maybe it's your stubborness blocking what you refuse to see.

Not what I was talking about - LOL! - Of course salvation is a gift - The Bible says so!
Of course the wages of sin is death! The Bible says so!

It is not a straw man to say salvation is a gift, It is fact.

The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life (salvation) in Jesus Christ our lord.

That is scripture. not a persons idea to fit some doctrinal position.

then I do not understand your response to begin with, since it seems your agreeing with me, how could that be a strawman? or was your talking about him saying salvation was a wage?

Not what I was talking about - LOL! - Of course salvation is a gift - The Bible says so!
Of course the wages of sin is death! The Bible says so!

The strawman was to say that "prize" in I Cor. 9:27 (where Paul says that he might be a castaway - or disqualified - other versions) is referring to Paul's reward and not to his eternal destiny. The Greek words here are inconclusive when it comes to the question of whether Paul meant "a full reward" or "salvation/heaven".

One's previous bias of interpretation will inevitably come into play when interpreting this text. If a person believes in OSAS, then it is impossible to interpret this text in any way except that Paul meant "reward" rather than "salvation."

The strawman argument to fit the doctrinal position was mostly done by other posters before you!
(My view - LOL!)

Ha! Maybe my last post will help make sense out of what I was saying. Of course you won't agree, but then I didn't expect to convert you!

Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them.

You did not hear him, As he said, Salvation is not a prize, It is a gift,

Actually it is still not a straw man,

If salvation is a GIFT not a REWARD as even you just stated you agree with, Then Paul could NOT be talking about his salvation. Since salvation is NOT a prize. the Prize in 1 Cor 9 could not be talking about salvation period.

Whether I believe in OSAS or not. Salvation is a Gift, Anything that is considered a prize (including the prize in 1 cor 9) Could NOT be talking about salvation.

if anything, the strawman would be to say the prize COULD be talking about salvation, to support ones belief.

You do not run a race to earn salvation, UNLESS salvation is earned by ones work, which even you claim is not true.

I can't Agree, there is no won't about it, I would have to contradict myself.

In fact. I am kind of suprised. You said you agree, Salvation is a gift, Not a prize or reward. then you contradict yourself by saying running the race to earn a prize in 1 cor 9 could be salvation (meaning you were wrong to begin with, Salvation can be a prize, and not a gift, which must be earned) meaning you created your own strawman because you interpret it by your belief, not by reality.

Hey Chester! First off, as I think you know, I am not one who thinks that if you believe you can lose your salvation that means you aren't really a saved Christian. I say that because my forthcoming question is not intended as a gotcha. I'd really like to know what you think.

So these were the questions I posed to another poster. His position was that God will unseal some of His Children for something yet defined that they may do.
Now I believe YOUR position is that God will NEVER leave us but that we can leave Him. So what does "sealed by the Holy Spirit" mean to you, and can you break that seal, and will GOD be the one who unseals?
I'd also like to hear what you think "knowing" Jesus means. Thanks brother.

I think his position on "knowing" Jesus had something to do with following His ways and NOT that Jesus made him a NEW creation. So I just copied and pasted part of our discussion:

What exactly do you think "knowing" means? Adam "knew" his wife and from that knowing a new life was created.

Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them. It appears that you believe similar to these guys who thought the new life came about by DOING a whole bunch of stuff in Jesus' name.

If you are NOT like these guys who practice lawlessness, then please tell us what "knowing" Jesus means to you.

It is a similar question to what does the sealing of the Holy Spirit mean to you. You said God can unseal you, but you didn't tell us what the sealing MEANT to you.

So please tell us what "sealing" means and what "knowing" Jesus means to you. Thank you.

The problem with what are saying here is in the text - I Cor. 9:27 - the Greek text does not have the word "prize" at all. It simply says "autos adokimos genomai" - literally something like - "I might become disapproved" -- Certainly the wording is open for interpretation!

Always look at the text before going into great details about the meaning of a word not in the text!

You are making a connection that is simply not in the text. Nowhere does it say "never knew" means "never created a new life". That's reading into the text.

Now here is a strawman to fit ones belief

A gift is not earned, It is freely given, the person giving the gift pays for the gift himself

A wage or reward is earned, It is paid for by the one who is receiving the wage, either in work (employment) or in work (physical fitness to win a race)

You can not boast of a gift, the one who gave the gift gets ALL the credit, You can Boast of a wage or reward. because you did all that had to be done to earn it, in the case of an olympian trying to win a gold medal. He can boast proudly, because he worked and did better than every other athlete. but even the athletes who did not win, and maybe did not even place can still boast because of all the hard work they did.

A gift is not a reward. a gift is not a wage, they are opposites. They have absolutely nothing in common other than the peron who recieves them MAY be the same person.

Do you not know that one thing can have two purposes, like a spork? A spork is both a spoon and a fork. Or a pencil, which is used for writing, but also makes amazing sculptures (look up pencil sculptures on Google images). You cannot go up to a pencil sculpture artist and say "You can only use pencils for writing, you cannot use them for sculptures!" And he would say "Yes I can, and I have, the evidence is right here in front of you."

In the same way, what is usually used to earn things (labor, work, obedience) in one situation cannot earn what is sought after. Therefore the person giving what is sought after has to choose why to give it to one person and not to the other. Whatever they choose as a reason they want to give does not mean that person earned it by possessing that reason.

For example, a rich and famous person decided to give 100 computers away to a school. They chose a school that was poor but had good kids. Now, did being poor earn the computers? No. Did good behaviour earn the computers? No. It was a gift. Those kids, that school met the criteria that match the choice of who to give it to. Being poor cannot earn the gift, good behaviour cannot earn the gift, and our obedience cannot earn salvation. However, on a different note, those who obey meet the criteria of God's choice of whom to give it to.

Amen! A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. In 1 Corinthians 9:18, Paul asks, "What then is my reward?"

That doesn't sound like a free gift to me (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). In 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, we read - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

Notice that verse 24 says, "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize, receiving the gold medal?

Perhaps they are saved by the grace of God, but get disqualified along life's way for cheating (disobedience)?