John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#161
#161
Danny1988 said:
That's true, but us Calvinists would argue that God already knew they would sin before He even created them. God had already planned to send His son to save many, He planned the whole Crucifixion and redemption before man was created.
Click to expand...
Yes, He knew they would sin, Just like he knew who would receive him and who would reject him, and based on that foreknowledge, elected and predestined those he KNEW were going to believe to eternal life.

God knows alot more than we think! He is not fooled one minute.

my point was if God gave everyone light they would respond by love, He gave adam and eve light and they responded by sinning.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#162
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#162
Danny1988 said:
The big question is why are some so sinful that they won't come to the light. I mean how did they come to be that way, were they created that way or did they choose to be that way. I know you will say they choose it, but I would say they chose it because they couldn't see any other way so they just did what comes naturally to them.
Click to expand...
Some of it is their upbringing; some of it is possibly hereditary (GOD says he visits the iniquities of the fathers on their children up to the 4th generation; Exodus 34:7); some of it is the compounding consequences of bad choices.
 
calibob

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
#163
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,510
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#163
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes, He knew they would sin, Just like he knew who would receive him and who would reject him, and based on that foreknowledge, elected and predestined those he KNEW were going to believe to eternal life.

God knows alot more than we think! He is not fooled one minute.

my point was if God gave everyone light they would respond by love, He gave adam and eve light and they responded by sinning.
Click to expand...
The first song we learned in the rescue mission was amazing grace, of course god knew all of the sins we would ever commit. He knew them before creation. He sent his son any way who forgave us any way, knowing that we would commit more. He forgave them all even the ones we'll commit tomorrow back around 33ad. He didn't choose for us to sin we did it ourselves and keep doing it. He paid for them all.

At the end of the Bible is a warning not to add take away from or distort the Word of the Lord and the last word is AMEN. Calvin, Wesley, Luther or the Popes words are not in it. They are just opinions. All of Gods truths lay in between: "In the beginning" and
"the grace of the Lord Jesus be with Gods people. AMEN"

Amen?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#164
#164
calibob said:
The first song we learned in the rescue mission was amazing grace, of course god knew all of the sins we would ever commit. He knew them before creation. He sent his son any way who forgave us any way, knowing that we would commit more. He forgave them all even the ones we'll commit tomorrow back around 33ad. He didn't choose for us to sin we did it ourselves and keep doing it. He paid for them all.

At the end of the Bible is a warning not to add take away from or distort the Word of the Lord and the last word is AMEN. Calvin, Wesley, Luther or the Popes words are not in it. They are just opinions. All of Gods truths lay in between: "In the beginning" and
"the grace of the Lord Jesus be with Gods people. AMEN"

Amen?
Click to expand...
Amen
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#165
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#165
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Some of it is their upbringing; some of it is possibly hereditary (GOD says he visits the iniquities of the fathers on their children up to the 4th generation; Exodus 34:7); some of it is the compounding consequences of bad choices.
Click to expand...
You have explained the symptoms quite well, I would like to get to the root cause of why one is given over to sin without restraint and the believer is locked in a battle against temptation.
I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, where sin was a normal way of life. I would still be there if God didn't draw me to Himself, why did He draw me and leave the rest of the family in their sins. I don't know why He saved me as I was the biggest sinner in the family, it's a mystery and I don't think men know the answer. Only God knows why He does what he does.
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#166
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#166
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes, He knew they would sin, Just like he knew who would receive him and who would reject him, and based on that foreknowledge, elected and predestined those he KNEW were going to believe to eternal life.

God knows alot more than we think! He is not fooled one minute.

my point was if God gave everyone light they would respond by love, He gave adam and eve light and they responded by sinning.
Click to expand...
I believe Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, the whole thing was a set up. God had already prepared His redemption plan before He even created them
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#167
#167
Danny1988 said:
I believe Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, the whole thing was a set up. God had already prepared His redemption plan before He even created them
Click to expand...
for what reason?

I think He predestined a plan to redeem them, because he knew they were going to sin.

You just pronounced you had God create evil. Shame Shame.
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#168
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#168
eternally-gratefull said:
for what reason?

I think He predestined a plan to redeem them, because he knew they were going to sin.

You just pronounced you had God create evil. Shame Shame.
Click to expand...
There's no shame on me, I believe God created all things. that's what the Bible says right? all things includes the free will to sin
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#169
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#169
eternally-gratefull said:
for what reason?

I think He predestined a plan to redeem them, because he knew they were going to sin.

You just pronounced you had God create evil. Shame Shame.
Click to expand...
May I please ask you who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Did God put it there by accident and did they eat of it by accident, or was it all a part of a plan
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#170
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#170
Danny1988 said:
You have explained the symptoms quite well, I would like to get to the root cause of why one is given over to sin without restraint and the believer is locked in a battle against temptation.
I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, where sin was a normal way of life. I would still be there if God didn't draw me to Himself, why did He draw me and leave the rest of the family in their sins. I don't know why He saved me as I was the biggest sinner in the family, it's a mystery and I don't think men know the answer. Only God knows why He does what he does.
Click to expand...
Possibly, and most likely, because you have a heart tuned to GOD's frequency, so to speak. When he spoke, you listened. Why that is, who knows. Have you ever held a vibrating tuning fork next to one of the same frequency that is not vibrating. The stationary one will start vibrating. That's one way I look at it.
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#171
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#171
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Possibly, and most likely, because you have a heart tuned to GOD's frequency, so to speak. When he spoke, you listened. Why that is, who knows. Have you ever held a vibrating tuning fork next to one of the same frequency that is not vibrating. The stationary one will start vibrating. That's one way I look at it.
Click to expand...
I've been praying for my family to convert for years, I've pleaded with them to trust in the Lord only but they still believe that it's the Lord plus what the Catholic Church teaches.
They just don't get it, no matter how much evidence you show them. Yet others embrace it and believe, they seem to be pre programmed to accept the Gospel without resisting it. It's still mysterious to me why some gladly receive the Gospel and other go to their graves resisting it to the end, it leads me to believe in predestination.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#172
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#172
Danny1988 said:
I've been praying for my family to convert for years, I've pleaded with them to trust in the Lord only but they still believe that it's the Lord plus what the Catholic Church teaches.
They just don't get it, no matter how much evidence you show them. Yet others embrace it and believe, they seem to be pre programmed to accept the Gospel without resisting it. It's still mysterious to me why some gladly receive the Gospel and other go to their graves resisting it to the end, it leads me to believe in predestination.
Click to expand...
I think predestination is that GOD knows beforehand whose hearts will respond. And then he works with those hearts to hear and respond to his voice. Others he knows will not respond, and they don't, so he lets them go their way.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#173
#173
Danny1988 said:
May I please ask you who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Did God put it there by accident and did they eat of it by accident, or was it all a part of a plan
Click to expand...
He put it there as a means to give his creation a choice, you can not have free will unless you have a choice. And your can not chose to receive love and cherish love unless you have a choice.

He did not put it there to force mankind to sin. Think about what your saying man.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#174
Mar 23, 2016
6,796
1,634
113
#174
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I think predestination is that GOD knows beforehand whose hearts will respond. And then he works with those hearts to hear and respond to his voice. Others he knows will not respond, and they don't, so he lets them go their way.
Click to expand...
I believe God calls all.

He knows beforehand whose hearts will respond.

He calls all anyway and allows those who do not respond to reject His calling.

After they reject, God lets them go their way.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#175
Mar 23, 2016
6,796
1,634
113
#175
Danny1988 said:
I believe Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, the whole thing was a set up. God had already prepared His redemption plan before He even created them
Click to expand...
God knowing beforehand that Adam would sin does not mean God "predestined" Adam to sin.

Here is God's Will:

Genesis 2:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


According to Gen 2:17, the Will of God for Adam and Eve was do not eat.

Knowing beforehand that Adam and Eve would eat, and having the forethought in His manifold wisdom to provide for the redemption of all mankind because of Adam's and Eve's disobedience, is not the same as God creating Adam for the purpose of sinning.
 
Musicus

Musicus

Senior Member
#176
Oct 26, 2017
314
39
28
#176
Danny1988 said:
When they say place or put your faith into Christs atoning work, it was directed at the elect of God. Because the reprobate will never place their faith in Christ.
Click to expand...
Yer nuts. I see it happen all the time.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#177
Jun 11, 2018
3,212
3,533
113
67
#177
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
An unregenerate man is fully able to hear the voice of GOD. He just cannot know or understand the door into life.
Click to expand...
Hi HeRoseFromTheDead, so the unregenerate can hear, but they cannot know or understand what they are hearing? Is that not the same thing that the Apostle said in 1 Corinthians 2:14, or do you mean something else by it? Also, what is the "door into life" that you speak of, and where can the reference to it be found in the Bible? John 10:9?

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
As it is written, all who hear and learn of the father come to Christ.
Click to expand...
And again (if you don't mind), where can this statement (or the idea behind it) be found in the Bible?

Thanks! (I'll probably have some additional questions/comments, but I wanted to make sure I was understanding you correctly first)

~Deut
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#178
Jun 11, 2018
3,212
3,533
113
67
#178
Danny1988 said:
I believe Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, the whole thing was a set up. God had already prepared His redemption plan before He even created them
Click to expand...
Hi Danny, if it was all a "setup" by God, and our progenitors were made/forced to disobey God by God Himself, 1. how can He hold our first parents culpable for their disobedience in the Garden, and 2. how can He not be considered the true Author of sin/moral evil?

Thanks!

~Deut
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#179
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#179
Deuteronomy said:
Hi HeRoseFromTheDead, so the unregenerate can hear, but they cannot know or understand what they are hearing? Is that not the same thing that the Apostle said in 1 Corinthians 2:14, or do you mean something else by it? Also, what is the "door into life" that you speak of, and where can the reference to it be found in the Bible? John 10:9?

And again (if you don't mind), where can this statement (or the idea behind it) be found in the Bible?
Click to expand...
Yes, John 10:9. The other is John 6:44-45
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#180
Jun 11, 2018
3,212
3,533
113
67
#180
trofimus said:
And as you think that John 3 refutes calvinism, somebody can think that John 6 refutes arminianism.

So its neverending tug of war. Obviously, some third way must be put in place.
Click to expand...
Hi Trofimus, that could be true, unless one of the two choices is actually correct that is (and we simply do not understand that it is :)). Perhaps if a "third" choice is necessary, it's time to yell "uncle" and admit that it may not be possible to know (or could it be that God doesn't want us to know?) the answer on this side of Glory .. Deuteronomy 29:29?

~Deut
 
You must log in or register to reply here.