The Rapture

Hello so-jesus-e-deus

That would be a mid-tribulation gathering of the church which can't be true, because much of God's wrath will have already taken place by the middle of the seven years and which believers are not appointed to suffer, ergo, believers must be gathered prior to the seventieth week.

"blew his trumpet" is NOT in the Greek text. That was added by some translators gratuitously.

CRITICAL TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

RECEIVED TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

KING JAMES BIBLE
And the seventh angel sounded

AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

ENGLISH REVISED VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

So neither "last" nor "trumpet" is in the actual text. Which means that the whole idea of a last trumpet being mentioned in Revelation is BOGUS.

"blew his trumpet" is NOT in the Greek text. That was added by some translators gratuitously.

CRITICAL TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

RECEIVED TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

KING JAMES Bible u I7
And the seventh angel sounded

AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

ENGLISH REVISED VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

So neither "last" nor "trumpet" is in the actual text. Which means that the whole idea of a last trumpet being mentioned in Revelation is BOGUS.

Hello Ahwatukee,

The trumpets are not the judgment of the Eternal One on the world, but a warning to the Church of Christ. We must not forget that trumpet is a symbol of warning. The vials is that they are His judgment. These will only happen after the rapture of the Church in the second half of the seventieth week.

I stand on what is stated in Daniel 12.

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.

4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.

Please explain to me how you can say the book of Daniel is not closed considering these verses.

Go to biblegateway.com and look them up for yourself. You can change the translation from one to another and see if any translation says it differently. I made my previous statement based on these verses which for some reason you reject them.

The end will comecome after the third temple is built

and Jesus returns with the whole world watching not just Jerusalem as some try to say.

Also he will be on the throne in Jerusalem as stated in Isaiah.

Since the third temple has to be built on the excavated site of the first two with the Gihon Springs under it providing water to purify the priests so they can do priestly duties.

Addendum
Please explain why all translations use the English word trumpet. The Greek language text implied an instrument being used. Historically a version of trumpets were used to get people's attention. They were blown to prepare the audience for something going back in ancient history. That is the context in Revelation. Something is sounded. It is extremely likely a trumpet would be used with their piercing loud sound. Methinks you just want to quibble over minusha.

Brother Endo, Dan 12,

Those who shine are Israelites wild and natural branches who preach the gospel kingdom. Calling on souls to repent and be baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Act 2:38. Their reward is to have the Holy Spirit within them for eternity.




This refers to the ministry of Jesus, His death, resurrection, and the coming of the gospel kingdom on Pentecost. These things were not revealed until after His resurrection Rom 16:25-26, 1 Cor 2:7-10.

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Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.



You must consider the context. Dan 12:5-7 tells EXACTLY how long it will be until the time of the end (when these things will be understood, implied).

3 1/2 times until all these things are finished, and the power of the holy people is scattered v. 7.

The power of the holy people was scattered in 70 ad.

So from Babylon until 70 ad was the first 3 1/2 times.

This would make the time AFTER the first 3 1/2 times, the last 3 1/2 times. Which was from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

The Revelation shows Jesus taking the scroll/book, that is mentioned in Dan. 12:4, and opening it with John in 96 ad approx.

So after the first 3 1/2 times is over in 70 ad and the power of the holy people is scattered, Jesus opens the scroll and reveals the contents of the book that was sealed in Daniel.

It centers on the natural branches after the rejection of Jesus and the gospel kingdom. The times of the gentiles, the time when the natural branches were persecuted by the Roman iron dragon beast nation. 70 ad through 1967

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When you say the time of the end, in the Daniel 12 context, that is the time that began after 70 ad.

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Please remember that there are many "ages" that even overlap each other.

The age before the Law. The Law age. The end of the Law age.

The age of sacrifice before the tabernacle. The age of the tabernacle.

The temple ages, 1st, 2nd (End of the temple age/world Matt 24:3, 70 ad.)

The time before the kingdom age. The coming of the kingdom on earth age Pentecost. The end of the kingdom on earth age.

So when we talk about the "end", of the age, it helps to be specific about which age it is the end of.

In the case of Daniel 12, it is referring to the time after the "scattering", the second 3 1/2 times, as the last days, the times of the gentiles, ending when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

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The 7 times are not years, they are the same time period as the statue in Daniel 2. Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem, ending the rule of the gentile nations over Israel. (No gaps in the statue time line of Daniel 2)




Again, what verse, part, of Daniel don't you understand? If you say that it cannot be understood, then you must not understand it. What in the book of Daniel don't you understand?




So, no chance that Jesus will come before that time? Jesus can't come until the temple is rebuilt? The Antichrist cannot come until the temple is rebuilt?

Do men have control over God and Jesus, and when the resurrection will happen? By just not rebuilding the temple? Or building it?

We are His temple now. The temple curtain was torn from top to bottom and will NEVER be reunited. The building of another temple is vanity.

The presence of Jesus God will not be there, and therefor it cannot be defiled. It would be like any other pagan temple built by unbelievers.




Will we see His face? No one can see His face and live, Ex 33:20. (Maybe he will wear a paper bag over his head)




Jesus is on the eternal throne of David right now in the heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22-24, 22.

He is coming to take us home to be with Him. But there will be no planet earth after that except fire Rev 20:9.




Pre-trib theory requires that everything be exactly as it was in 70 ad in order for that theory to come true. But the events that are expected to happen have already happened in the 70 ad time period.

The AoD was one reason that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad. Daniel 9:24-27.

And the ministry of Jesus that began at the beginning of the 69th week cannot be removed from the context of the AoD and the coming of the people of the prince to destroy Jerusalem, which happened in the 70 ad time period.

Trumpets are used in parables to signify the word of God ,

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1: 10

The whole book is signified hiding the spiritual meaning from the lost . The sound of many waters also signifies the word of God. He use many metaphors as hidden manna.

I totally reject that pretorist view of eschatology. Primarily because of a quote of Jesus claiming the whole world not just Jerusalem will see him come along with angels bringing the Christians out of the earth. Trying to claim that happened in 70AD is ludicrous. When were all Christians raptured?? Also immediately after that God pours out His wrath on earth destroying 1/3 of all the life. If not stopped all life would be destroyed. When did this happen?? ALL EARTH NOT JUST JERUSALEM!!!

I totally reject that pretorist view of eschatology. Primarily because of a quote of Jesus claiming the whole world not just Jerusalem will see him come along with angels bringing the Christians out of the earth. Trying to claim that happened in 70AD is ludicrous. When were all Christians raptured?? Also immediately after that God pours out His wrath on earth destroying 1/3 of all the life. If not stopped all life would be destroyed. When did this happen?? ALL EARTH NOT JUST JERUSALEM!!!

Brother Endo,

Nice try at changing the subject from the book of Daniel being open and understood, to various other topics, and trying to put me in a box with teachings that I do not believe. If you have been reading and understanding my posts you would know that I am not a preterist.

Do you understand the book of Daniel or not?

Good day!

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. " Rev.15:1

My suggestion to you, is to stop just repeating the false teachings that you have read and heard and do your own studies.

Daniel is closed until end times by it being stated twice near the end of it. Therefore like Revelation using similar types of symbolism they are closed. As such being the major sections of eschatologyical scripture they are not easy to completely understand. This is why theologians over the centuries have created 4 seperate views of them with possibly one of them possibly being accurate. Also the possibility is none is completely accurate. All are educated guesses.

Does this answer your question?

Once again, the "last trumpet" mentioned in I Cor.15:52 has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet, other than both using the word "trumpet."

The "last trumpet" is a blessing for the church being caught up,

where the 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath for the wicked.

In addition, there is nothing whatsoever mentioned about the gathering of the church in or around the context of the 7th trumpet.

You will not even find the word "church" appear anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath.

As I have made clear to you before, if the church was to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would put the church through all of the seals and trumpets

which are God's wrath and which believers are not appointed to suffer,

ergo, we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened.

Brother Endo,
G
I guess it does answer the question.

You know little or nothing about Daniel and Revelation. You are unqualified to answer any questions about the 2 books and any answers that you give concerning them must be wrong or a guess.

It's too bad that you have chosen the path of ignorance.

Did you bother to read Daniel 12 before accusing me of being ignorant about the books of Revelation and Daniel. Your accusation of not responding to the red herring attempt to side track the issue being discussed was not going to the point. Here for your education is part of Daniel 12. Now explain to me how you are able to completely understand Daniel in spite of these verses!!

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shashine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.

Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Good day!

I do my own studies. So much so that I never see someone that believes exactly as I do.
As for Rev 15: 1, it speaks of the seventh last plagues that depict the wrath of the Eternal. I agree that the seals and trumpets were demonstrations of the wrath of the Eternal. And that the Church of Christ is the first to be the target of the wrath of the Eternal, this can be seen in the letter of Peter:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." (Rev 4.16-19).

After all, the Church needs to be disciplined to fulfill its role as the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). And how the Church has needed this discipline !!!
However, judgment is only through the vials that will be shed after the rapture.

Good day!

I do my own studies. So much so that I never see someone that believes exactly as I do.
As for Rev 15: 1, it speaks of the seventh last plagues that depict the wrath of the Eternal. I agree that the seals and trumpets were demonstrations of the wrath of the Eternal. And that the Church of Christ is the first to be the target of the wrath of the Eternal, this can be seen in the letter of Peter:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." (Rev 4.16-19).

After all, the Church needs to be disciplined to fulfill its role as the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). And how the Church has needed this discipline !!!
However, judgment is only through the vials that will be shed after the rapture.