Not By Works

Where do you come up with this stuff?

If these people were saved THEY ARE RAPTURED?
Nothing in scripture even comes close to saying this.

I stated a point, You saying that ONLY isreal will live till the end (remnant) and maybe nations who did not treat Israel badly will go throug does not help.. If they are saved, they are raptured If not they are destroyed.. Thats what scripture says, I have to go with scripture.

Jesus said WHOEVER endures to the end, not only if your part of Isreal will you be saved if you endure the promise was for all.

second. The OT and Paul said ALL isreal will be saved, ie, remnant isreal would be ALL OF THEM.. so if this is the case. ALL israel would be raptured. There would be non left.

Another strawman. Just like you blame others for doing to you when they have no response to your answers

The bible is clear. On the day of the rapture. ALL Who are saved will in the blink of en eye be raised, and all who are alive and saved will be caught up after. As I see it, There is no room for addition or any other senerio, I am not elevating anything, I am just stating what I see, If you do not like it. Thats fine (as I have said over and over) but to respond like you are. That just nuts bro. Nuts!

Yet another of the many reasons which lead me away from post trib/amill. I am not sure aboout this peace treaty though, How many have we had since the 1950’s” I am not sure we can say exactly what that will be, However, the abomination of desolation, there is no argument, which is why while I lean pre-trib, I do not rule out mid trib.

Again, the signs of revelation and the things occuring would lead us to know when Christ returns, and I think there is a reason, to give those on earth who are following christ hope. Knowing it will be a short time (although 3-4b years is like an eternity for those suffering the times of war and the persecution they will suffer)

I suggest Zechariah.....the remnant that looks upon him whom they pierced do not get raptured and then explain how they repopulate the waste cities of the planet in glorified bodies and then explain who makes up the number gathered by Satan after he is released after the reign of Christ.....and then explain how a child can die cursed at 100 during the reign if ALL THE LOST are dead and gone and no one is left but saved in glorified bodies.....we will all wait!

Just because the passage does not talk about saved gentile believers does not mean they will be there. This is talking to jews specifically. So using this as proof does not work,
As for jews repopulating the waste cities chapter and verse please

As for the number gathered by satan, it is people who most likely are born to he believers who entered, yet never came to trust christ. If these people are glorified. They could have no children. So there would be no one for satan to deceive. So your view does not explain where these people who are unsaved came from.

Because jesus said whoever endured to the end will be saved, they will enter the kingdom (jew or gentile) alive, having not been killed. They will not be glorified, they will be just like you and myself right now. Only most likely, their bodies will have been healed, because people will live along time, most likely because the earth has been restored to most likely pre-flood conditions, They will have children, They will still be bound by these physical bodies. They can still sin, some will still die.. because they have not been glorified.
The people in glorified bodies (us) will help jesus rule these people. we will not be these people.

Wait for what?

Look bro.....it is of no use to even attempt it....most likely is not a definitive answer...you stated all the saved are gone and then say most likely born to believers that enter......three times you have stated something and then destroyed your own argument...the bad thing with posts in the ability to read in anger or mouthy responses when there are none...my stance is clear...Christ will not come till numerous events take place...those events have not happened yet ..end of story...peace

SMH I am not the one saying all the saved are gone, I have never said it, I have never inferred it, I have never suggested it, About the only thing I have said is post trib is unbelievable BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THEM, ALL THE SAVED ARE RAPTURED. (By defenition of what the rapture is) meanng all the saved people are gone

I have continually, and even in this post said the saved are saved physically (explaining matt 24, whoever endures to the end will be saved) and enter the kingdom age alive, Unraptured. For they have witnessed Christs return, and probably spend 30 - 40 years post his return to clean up the mess (hence most likely the number of days above 3.5 years spoken about in dan 12) and the people who will repopuate the earth during the 1000 year reign of christ. These peopel will live in their own nations, Have kids, Have lives, come to jerusalem once a year to worship the king, Be punished with no rain if they do not and their offspring will be part of those who follow satan in the end (it can nt be then, eternal security is just as gauranteed to them as it is for us)

You yell I do not hear what you say, yet you are doing that very thing.

NO ARGUING.. It's too dang early in the morning to argue.. and I'm just barely on my 2nd cuppa iced coffee.. when I'm finished I'll let y'all know then you can go back to arguing.. So no arguing allowed until Lady Blue finishes her coffee.. OK?

Good. I knew you'd understand me.. lol

Such impudence.. lol

I had to start work at 4: 30 today. I had 2 cups of coffee and still not enugh, so forgive me for being moody!!

I am sure it is late for DC, if he is still In Australia, so he has an excuse also

Lol

There is the pot calling the kettle black. You are one of the most opinionated on the site. You are right and the world is wrong. You reject out of hand anything except the Bible thus wallowing in ignorance what others learned the hard way. You demand to go the harder route. You ignore the fact that the early elders created the creeds for 3 specific purposes. To define what a Christian must believe, to define anything contrary as heresy, and finally all issues outside of it are to agree to disagree. The last you rejectyo. You don't accept any creeds but refuse to state what is in error with them. You ignore the history of them being. Used to spread the word at a time when Bibles were rare and very expensive.
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Going back to the early church creeds were created to define what a Christian must believe. Everything outside the creeds was to agree to disagree. Too many Christians don't want to agree to disagree. There is 2 groups of Christians that disagree on 5 points that they adhere to. One point is OSAS. Calvinists adhere to OSAS but Armenians oppose it.

Here is a list of the ancient creeds with date and short explanation.
. . .[/QUOTE]


YOU KNOW I every ONE of THOSE OF THE OPPOSITE VIEWPOINT has an OPINION about what OSAS actually MEANS and what We BELIEVE, and ALMOST EVERY ONE WITH AN OPINION IS TOTALLY WRONG. When are people going to learn to ASK US WHAT WE MEAN BY THAT PHRASE, instead of repeating the incredible LIES about our Beliefs.

YES I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE in OSAS, but it IS TOTALLY BIBLICAL, and NOT LIKE MOST ANTI-OSAS think we MEAN BY IT.

Then you Endoscopy bring up CREEDS that were Written when most of the world was illiterate. And think we still believe those confused opinions. Do you NOT THINK we have GROWN SPIRITUALLY at all since we NOW have our OWN BIBLES, and not a Latin version, CHAINED to the Pulpit. It is Incredible what SOME OF YOU ERRONEOUSLY BELIEVE about OSAS Beliefs.

As Far as I am concerned the Armenian and Calvinist ARGUMENTS are DEAD and has been for the past 40 years. Get Over It. I think MOST CHRISTIANS BELIEVE the TRUTH LIES SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, has NOTHING TO DO WITH lack of Obedience. It has to do with TAKING THESE VERSES LITERALLY:

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them [equals born again Believer], and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:4-9 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens,
7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through ⌊His⌋ kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

John 6:47 (HCSB)
47 “I assure you: Anyone who believes [.Born Again.] has eternal life. [.It is not eternal if you can lose it.]

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.


SO WE BELIEVE THE BIBLE LITERALLY, . . . . . so what do you believe?[/QUOTE]
You ignore the history of the creeds. They were written in the 200s to 500. Keep in mind the history of how things were back then. No printing presses then so Bibles were extremely rare and expensive. The word was spread by word of mouth and memorization of some documents or section of documents were used in place of the written words. This caused the creeds to be developed to spread the word of God. I have challenged some on this board to explain where any of these creeds were in error. They just say they ignore anything written by man. Their attitude ignores history of how Bibles were written. They were laboriously hand copied by scribes thus were rare and expensive. Also many of the common people were illiterate. So even if they somehow got one of the rare and extremely expensive Bibles they couldn't read it. At that time in history it was common for people to memorize important documents that were secular in nature. They did this with creeds and sections of the Bible. Using these is how the gospel was spread. Why do you and others ignore this part of history of how life was lived before printing presses and almost universal education of children in developed countries. Go look at how sections of the world are today in the very undeveloped areas. Poor illiterate scratching out a living with no schools, hospitals, and other things we take for granted living in North America. Even Mexico is head and shoulders above the way of life in these areas. Life was like that in the time of these creeds were written.

WHY DO YOU AND OTHERS IGNORE THE REALITY OF LIFE BACK THEN!!

@VCO I didn't get saved by listening to sermons. I didn't go to church. after reading the Bible the desire to go to church grew stronger. False teachers most likely outnumber real ones at least 10 x 1 and bogus churches are higher on the bad side because bad teachers have influence on more than one church. It's better to read our bibles and not go to church than not read our bibles and go to church. We also have recordings for those who can't read Save your hot air for someone who is easily influenced and is not suspicious of all who claim to be teachers of the word.

Addendum to previous post.
Today in the undeveloped countries missionaries use tape recorders to pass the Bible sections to illiterate people. They didn't have electronics back then. Everyone seems to look at the place we live in taday and impute it to those back then. That is not reality.

Totally agree with you on this. The study of eschatology (end times) is murky at best. Daniel states in 2 places it is sealed until end times and Revelation is written with the same style of symbolism making it impossible to completely understand. Thus theologians studying them for centuries have come up with 4 different possible scenarios and they might all be in error. Prophecies in the Gospels, Acts and epistles are clear but not a complete picture of end times. There are known events that will have to happen. For instance the abomination that causes desolation is thought to only take place in the temple. Currently in Israel they have excavated the place where the first and second temple stood. There they found the Gion springs feeding a pool where the priests ritually cleansed themselves before performing their duties near the alter for the sacrifices were performed. It is located where the Bible places it in the high point in the North part of the City of David which ends just south of the temple Mount. The wall that people point to on the temple Mount was in fact the wall of a Roman fort. It housed a Roman legion which was 6000 plus the 4000 support personnel, looking at the scale model of what those who place the temple on the mount creates a very small fort in the corner of the mount. Not feasible for 10,000 people to live in.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:12-17).