Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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James was oneof the 12 chosen disciples, so at the least he was one of the main foundational disciples. His name will be on the foundation of the kingdom:

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve emissaries of the Lamb."

If you study history he was called James the just (Yaaqob) and he led the disciples. James, Peter and John were the leaders of the followers of Yahshua.
Dude....your wrong....James did not even believe until AFTER THE RESURRECTION.....he was not one of the 12 chosen.....

John 7:5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him.
 

RedeemedGift

Senior Member
May 28, 2017
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Peter denied the Christ 3x then hid yet he was saved although he lost his faith till Jesus came to him yet he WAS NOT damned to hell! Works had nothing to do with it. Grace-> Faith-> Salvation! That's all folks!
If there was one known sin that one would think would damn an apostle to hell for doing then it would be this. Yet the concept of losing our salvation isn't really a thing in the scriptures outside of a few choice interpretations of a handful of verses taken out of their contexts. Jesus anticipated Peter's denials, yet the Lord willed to restore him when all was said and done. That's a bit strange if we're to believe that salvation is something that can be lost. Unless one believes we step in and out of salvation like a slot machine based on our deeds every other hour, which of course, is a mockery to the grace and glory of a redeeming God.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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OSAS is not a sound doctrine.
I hear the sound of "hopelessly Lost"

Romans8:29-31
29)
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30) And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31) What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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The word disciple comes from a Greek word that means....a learner of one's doctrine or teaching....EVERYBODY THAT IS SAVED AND STUDIES THE WORD OF GOD is a disciple......No....James was not some HEAD disciple nor was he an Apostle...he BELIEVED AFTER THE RESURRECTION, was saved, studied for a time pastored the Church at Jerusalem.....he wrote 1 book of the NT just as the other half brother of Jesus --> Jude and his book does not teach a faith works blend to gain or keep salvation.....his book was written to JEWISH TRIBES SCATTERED ABROAD AND DEALS with the mere belief IN GOD as compared to genuine saving faith......it's main push is how MEN can SEE genuine faith in a believer......end of story!
You always reject what James states. Faith without works is dead. That is the relationship between faith and works. Works doesn't save but also faith without works will not save as well. The person claiming faith and has no works is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Jesus stated by their fruits (works) you shall know them. I go with Jesus on this subject.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Funny how many Cainologists push and peddle works while denying that they push and peddle works....especially those religions that have roots in their mother the Catholic Church....I see they are returning to their roots.....
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Anaheim, Cali.
You always reject what James states. Faith without works is dead. That is the relationship between faith and works. Works doesn't save but also faith without works will not save as well. The person claiming faith and has no works is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Jesus stated by their fruits (works) you shall know them. I go with Jesus on this subject.
That's going too far. Wolf? no, lazy much more likely. Needs a kick in the tail sure. An antichrist, I doubt it.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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What are you talking about ? ? ?

These quotes on Posts are getting purely jumbled. I have found other quotes attributed to me, and the other way around.
KISS is something used in electronics and software. It stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. Some engineers like to make it more complicated than it needs to be. That causes the hardware or software harder to test, repair and maintain.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Funny how many Cainologists push and peddle works while denying that they push and peddle works....especially those religions that have roots in their mother the Catholic Church....I see they are returning to their roots.....
What is a cainologist? Try regular English terms. It's not on Google.
 

RedeemedGift

Senior Member
May 28, 2017
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You always reject what James states. Faith without works is dead. That is the relationship between faith and works. Works doesn't save but also faith without works will not save as well. The person claiming faith and has no works is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Jesus stated by their fruits (works) you shall know them. I go with Jesus on this subject.
You shouldn't base your soteriological view on a handful of verses when one looks to the gospel of John, the gospel that was addressed to unbelieving, unsaved people, that has nearly 100 references to faith and absolutely nothing else being the condition to receiving salvation. If you want the gospel of John to fit with your interpretation of James then verses like John 3:16 can't be read at face value in its simplicity.

I have a better passage. John 6:28-29

Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent".
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
He is talking to those that have the truth in unrighteousness.

What do you think of a person who has the truth. Do you think that they knew God at least at one time? Do you think they were saved at one time? Do you think they had the truth and all that goes with knowing the truth and gave it up? Yes. OSAS is not a sound doctrine.
Unrighteous should be your key. Having no excuse should be another key. God gave them over to their beliefs should be another key.

These people new about God. They had no desire to KNOW HIM! They loved their sin more than they loved god. That was the point of the passage
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You always reject what James states. Faith without works is dead. That is the relationship between faith and works. Works doesn't save but also faith without works will not save as well. The person claiming faith and has no works is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Jesus stated by their fruits (works) you shall know them. I go with Jesus on this subject.
You know Endoscopy, all you need to do is ASSOCIATE those Works that doesn't save, with GOD'S LOVE IN US, WILL produce Good Works and Obedience because you LOVE HIM; and then I could agree with you totally. Yes, HE SAVED US TOTALLY as a FREE GIFT OF GRACE, and AFTER we are SAVED, GOD'S LOVE in us, Rom 5:5, will produce a Harvest of Good Works and Obedience. AMEN.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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KISS is something used in electronics and software. It stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. Some engineers like to make it more complicated than it needs to be. That causes the hardware or software harder to test, repair and maintain.
Oh my, that is one of my FAVORITE EXPRESSION, and I did not think of that. Thank You.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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You shouldn't base your soteriological view on a handful of verses when one looks to the gospel of John, the gospel that was addressed to unbelieving, unsaved people, that has nearly 100 references to faith and absolutely nothing else being the condition to receiving salvation. If you want the gospel of John to fit with your interpretation of James then verses like John 3:16 can't be read at face value in its simplicity.

I have a better passage. John 6:28-29

Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent".
All of scripture is given by God. Are you saying the words of Jesus to look at the works (fruit) to see what a person is should be ignored. Remember he was talking about wolves in sheep's clothing. In other words a secular person masquerading as a Christian. Today fake ministers have taken over denominations. Gary North wrote the book Crossed Fingers documenting the take over of Presbyterian USA in 1932 by secular ministers in order to have access to the church funds. The last true minister in control of some church funds, a Reverend Mechan, was defrocked to remove him from the mission money. These are the wolves in sheep's clothing we are to look to their fruits (works). As Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. As I stated before at a special invitation evening service with refreshments being served a man from a Lutheran church heard the gospel message for the first time. That man testified to the fruits of the minister of that church. Thus proving he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. The fruit of a secular minister is never preaching the gospel message. By their fruits you shall know them. I stand by that statement of Jesus. The fruit of a Christian minister is always preaching the gospel. The fruit of a secular minister is never preaching the gospel message.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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How often does your minister preach the gospel message? Mine gets it in every sermon. He talks about some issue but always brings in the gospel message. He never knows when an unsaved person listening will be open to accept Jesus. This at 73 and attending church always is what I have experienced in the churches I have attended.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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You ignore the history of the creeds. They were written in the 200s to 500. Keep in mind the history of how things were back then. No printing presses then so Bibles were extremely rare and expensive. The word was spread by word of mouth and memorization of some documents or section of documents were used in place of the written words. This caused the creeds to be developed to spread the word of God. I have challenged some on this board to explain where any of these creeds were in error. They just say they ignore anything written by man. Their attitude ignores history of how Bibles were written. They were laboriously hand copied by scribes thus were rare and expensive. Also many of the common people were illiterate. So even if they somehow got one of the rare and extremely expensive Bibles they couldn't read it. At that time in history it was common for people to memorize important documents that were secular in nature. They did this with creeds and sections of the Bible. Using these is how the gospel was spread. Why do you and others ignore this part of history of how life was lived before printing presses and almost universal education of children in developed countries. Go look at how sections of the world are today in the very undeveloped areas. Poor illiterate scratching out a living with no schools, hospitals, and other things we take for granted living in North America. Even Mexico is head and shoulders above the way of life in these areas. Life was like that in the time of these creeds were written.

WHY DO YOU AND OTHERS IGNORE THE REALITY OF LIFE BACK THEN!!
Aren't you the KISS man or is it somone else?[/QUOTE]

I saw nothing in your scripture references that disputed what the creeds say. I brought up the creeds because of the continual attack on them by some ignoring in many gospel preaching churches they are recited by the congregation in the preliminary part of the service. That is where I learned the Apostles Creed. In a RCA Church. The gospel message was brought into the sermon every time. So again where are the scriptures refuting any Creed as not conforming to the Bible. Other gospel preaching denominations use the other creeds. Refute them or shut up about them. Creeds are used to define what a Christian must believe and churches having the congregation recite them use it to reinforce the gospel message.[/QUOTE]
Looks like you are responding to a post I never made.

I asked if you were the KISS man.
As for the rest of it I have no idea what's happened
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Salvation is not gained/earned by faith or works it is given by YHWH. WIthout His mercy nonewould enter.
Salvation is gained/received by/through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9).

WIth that said, and this is extra, real faith has works; that is does the will of YHWH. False faith; that is in word only does not follow YHWH.
Faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Following Jesus is the evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith. Faith is not defined as works.

There is a difference between God's will for us to BECOME saved: John 6:40 - For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND...

God's will for us AFTER we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

I assume I will be spoken bad of for quoting it.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous before God, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith was "perfected" by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Is this parable OK? Youre not going to call me a pharisee for posting it? I love the Salvation YHWH offers and love the Words of Messiah:

Matthew 25:14-30,14 for it is like a man going from home, who called his own servants and delivered his possessions to them."15 “And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability, and went from home."16 “And he who had received the five talents went and worked with them, and made another five talents."17 “In the same way, he with the two also, he gained two more."18 “But he who had received the one went away and dug in the ground, and hid the silver of his master."19 “And after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them."20 “And he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents. See, I have gained five more talents besides them.’"21 “And his master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy servant. You were trustworthy over a little, I shall set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’"22 “Then he who had received two talents came and said, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents. See, I have gained two more talents besides them.’"23 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy servant. You were trustworthy over a little, I shall set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’"24 “And the one who had received the one talent also came and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed,"25 and being afraid, I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’"26 “And his master answering, said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed."27 Then you should have put my silver with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest."28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to him who possesses ten talents."29 ‘For to everyone who possesses, more shall be given, and he shall have overflowingly; but from him who does not possess, even what he possesses shall be taken away. (Lk 8:18) 30 And throw the worthless servant out into the outer darkness – there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
This parable if often quoted by works-salvationists who try to teach there are believers/Christians who do absolutely nothing and will not be saved, while boasting about how much THEY do. :unsure:

In this parable, the talents represent monetary value and are distributed according to ability (vs. 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked/worthless" and "slothful/lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was NOT A TRUE disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as a hard man, reaping where he did not sow and gathering where he scattered no seed. This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he is saved. The Israelites were referred to by God as "My servant whom I have chosen" (Isaiah 43:10) even though not all of the Israelites were saved.