The Abomination of Desolation

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Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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lol, Me either EG!!!!

In the past many who do believe that way would give a challenge to Read the writings of Josephus(a whole lot of reading) because they thought it would help in proving their eschatology but most wont do it. Why is that it is not scripture and so it puts a foul taste in many's mouth and so they refuse to read it or see it even as a historical document.

I am (NOT a preteist) and do not believe the AOD,the mark of the beast ect. were fulfilled between ad66-70. Why is because many years ago my thoughts were in that "I did not care if this camp or the other was correct I just wanted to know what was". In the same I am also (NOT M.A.D.) and so have no desire to deny that Jerusalem was destroyed in ad70.

Locutus I count as a dear friend of mine(a brother in Christ) although we differ on this(AOD,mark of beast ect.) and see him as very intelligent and has shown me he is honest about things we have discussed. So the post between me and him might seem rash but bare in mind he referred to me as Markus and changed from Dispensational to futuristic because he knew it was accurate(bless you brother,lol).

You have the scriptures to work with which are a type of scale to weigh anything against. They are what any document is compared to in Christian eschatology. Again though as in this case Adam Clarke was quoted,quoting Josephus so anyone who has never read the things from Josephus will agree without reading it or read it to see if it is so.

In Wars 2 from Josephus http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html (if you read it,lol) you will find a weapon that will completely change how you look at the AOD and the mark of the beast. Look for this,,, "piety",,"offerings",, but why?

In the bible(scale) those who worship the beast are who it says receive his mark. In wars2 the Jews are accused of impiety meaning they did not worship nor hold any regard to Caesar/Rome as any type God/Holiness ect. (opposite from scripture).

In wars 2 the Romans try several times to have their images set up in Jerusalem and other synagogues(other cities in Judah) and the Jews riot every time because it would pollute the temple of God (again opposite to scripture those who receive the mark worship the image).

Look at wars2 chapter 18,find "Pella"(notice the place you are told they fled to is sacked and its people killed between ad66-70),lol not such a safe place to flee to right?

In the Scriptures Revelation 13:17 no one can buy or sell unless they do so with the beast mark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage (notice the Jews are not using the Romans money any more)? So if Rome is the beast they did not buy and sell with their money.

Much more I could say but Ask yourself if the Jews worshiped Rome/Caesar or if they revolted against it/him and notice that in Scripture the ones who receive the mark and worship the image of the beast are the ones within the walls of Jerusalem during the siege...
You know what bro, this is a great post! No wonder we agree on things. We are right. ;)

The Josephus thing im so sick and tired of hearing about it, the Ad70 destruction was devastating no doubt, but lets not get carried away here. It was NOT the worst time in human history, by any stretch of the imagination. One can make teh argument it was the worst time Israel had ever faced, but I can say with confidence that they have faced far worse, for example that certain world war II that happened just recently.

In fact I would say the current war in Syria has been more devastating than the Ad70 destruction of Jerusalem. The details dont match as you say, the people werent well off in Petra.

Btw Bro: Do you believe Matthew 24 is an indicator that we should still keep the sabbath? Or why does it say to pray that it doesn't happen on the Sabbath? Jesus is speaking to His disciples here, who are jews yes, but they also believe in Jesus.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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You do whatever you wish. [/QUOTE]
Who says we are not in that generation now? Generations can mean many things.

Again I ask, Matt 24 says these events would be so great, all flesh would die if he did not return. Can you tell me what occured in 70 AD that caused all life on earth to be threatened. And when did Christ return? He said in matt 24 he would return at that time, when did it happen?
The angel in Daniel 12:4 and 12:9 tells Daniel to go on his way as the events described to him pertain to the end times, at which time knowledge of these events would then increase.
As knowledge of the events described to Daniel in chapters 7 through 12 are only now beginning to be unsealed and understood, I therefore do believe the generation who are to witness all the events in Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 correspond to the here and now.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The angel in Daniel 12:4 and 12:9 tells Daniel to go on his way as the events described to him pertain to the end times, at which time knowledge of these events would then increase.
As knowledge of the events described to Daniel in chapters 7 through 12 are only now beginning to be unsealed and understood, I therefore do believe the generation who are to witness all the events in Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 correspond to the here and now.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Yes, i believe we are in the birth pang period. But how can you say it was all fulfilled. If we are seeing some fulfilled now
 

luigi

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Dec 6, 2015
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Again I ask, Matt 24 says these events would be so great, all flesh would die if he did not return. Can you tell me what occured in 70 AD that caused all life on earth to be threatened. And when did Christ return? He said in matt 24 he would return at that time, when did it happen?
In Revelation 8 we see the destruction to one third of earths environs.
In Revelation 9 with the opening of the bottomless pit we see various other environmental issues created that in turn has the four released dark side angels influencing the worlds leaders that the solution to the shortage in food for the masses is to utilize their combined military and armed forces totaling 200 million and initiate a global genocide that will over the course of 13 months and one day take the lives of 1/3 of all of earth's populace.
In Revelation 9:20-21 we then see the reason for these plagues in Revelation 8 & 9 attributed to the love mankind has for the works from his hands, thereby indicating industrial pollution as the cause for why all life on earth is threatened prior to Christs return.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
In Revelation 8 we see the destruction to one third of earths environs.
In Revelation 9 with the opening of the bottomless pit we see various other environmental issues created that in turn has the four released dark side angels influencing the worlds leaders that the solution to the shortage in food for the masses is to utilize their combined military and armed forces totaling 200 million and initiate a global genocide that will over the course of 13 months and one day take the lives of 1/3 of all of earth's populace.
In Revelation 9:20-21 we then see the reason for these plagues in Revelation 8 & 9 attributed to the love mankind has for the works from his hands, thereby indicating industrial pollution as the cause for why all life on earth is threatened prior to Christs return.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Did these happen in Ad 70?

Or are they yet future?

And I asked when ALL flesh on earth would be threatened, You did not show me how that happened.

And why can;t you seem to answer my questions?
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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Yes, i believe we are in the birth pang period. But how can you say it was all fulfilled. If we are seeing some fulfilled now
Birth pangs it is; totally agree.
I never said they had been fulfilled. I think you have me mixed up with KJV1616 to whom I was contesting his perspectives on these events having been fulfilled in 70 AD.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Birth pangs it is; totally agree.
I never said they had been fulfilled. I think you have me mixed up with KJV1616 to whom I was contesting his perspectives on these events having been fulfilled in 70 AD.
Oh I thought you were saying they were. Sorry. It is nice we can not see a person post. But when they are quoted we should be able to see. One ba aspect of new format.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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Did these happen in Ad 70?

Or are they yet future?

And I asked when ALL flesh on earth would be threatened, You did not show me how that happened.

And why can;t you seem to answer my questions?
The levels of pollution in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 which are created by the love mankind has for the works from his hands ( through industry), is a relatively modern phenomena. These could not have occurred in the past, prior to the industrial revolution.

All life on earth will be threatened as indicated in Revelation 8 & 9 by the pollution created through industry.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Thanks for your reply bro.

Josephus, as with other things, may be used as a guide;. But since it is not scripture. Should not be used to determine or prove your theology. That would be having your theology rooted in the words of men, and not the bible. Maccabees is another non scripture writting which I personally have used, as it shows the maccabean revolt. Which was caused by the little horn of dan 8, which I believe is a precurser to the future king of rome which will commit the abomination of desolation in the middle of the 7 weeks.

I am not M.A.D either..lol Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD as fortold by Daniel, and its desolation will continue until the time aloted (the end of war desolations, which has been present in the middle east since) as per Dan 9 And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


As for Locutis, I have him on ignore also. This topic gets heated. And some people I do not think can handle it with out getting bent out of shape, and he happens to be one of those people in my view (have not spoken for him for a few years now. Maybe he has changed?)

As for roman money, I am Not sure how that relates. As I see it, The mark of the beast will prevent people from buying or selling. I do not see where it will be only from roman money. It says they have no way to buy or sell anything period. Again, as I see it, Nothing the ceasar of rome did in AD 70 fulfills the prophesies concerning to final form of the gentile beast system.

Anyway, Thank you for honest and peaceful discussion :)

Your welcome,,,and thank you

There is something I would need to ask also in regards to what you said of the "little horn" that is this,,,

In Revelation 17:12 the angle states that they(the 10) "have received no kingdom as yet but they will at some future time. In Revelation 5:5-12 it mentions the Lamb(Jesus) who "was slain" so it speaks of the crucifixion as "past tense" so it is written "after Christ was crucified"...

Back to the dialog in Revelation 17:12 and the angel makes it clear that the ten horns have not received their kingdoms as yet(little horn rises after the 10? Daniel 8:24(after)...

In fact from Revelation 17 it can be detemined that at the time the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given the beast(8n) was in the pit and not in the world then present. r the 7th(Rev. 17:10) so from the time frame of Revelation would not the "little horn" according to the angel not have existed yet?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The levels of pollution in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 which are created by the love mankind has for the works from his hands ( through industry), is a relatively modern phenomena. These could not have occurred in the past, prior to the industrial revolution.

All life on earth will be threatened as indicated in Revelation 8 & 9 by the pollution created through industry.
I do not think this is set in stone, I think nuclear war is what threatens mankind, Jesus returns and puts an end to the war. I think some nukes are launched. This is what caused 1/3 to die. But jesus returns before all out war is launched, whch would wipe out mankind and all life on earth
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Your welcome,,,and thank you

There is something I would need to ask also in regards to what you said of the "little horn" that is this,,,

In Revelation 17:12 the angle states that they(the 10) "have received no kingdom as yet but they will at some future time. In Revelation 5:5-12 it mentions the Lamb(Jesus) who "was slain" so it speaks of the crucifixion as "past tense" so it is written "after Christ was crucified"...

Back to the dialog in Revelation 17:12 and the angel makes it clear that the ten horns have not received their kingdoms as yet(little horn rises after the 10? Daniel 8:24(after)...

In fact from Revelation 17 it can be detemined that at the time the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given the beast(8n) was in the pit and not in the world then present. r the 7th(Rev. 17:10) so from the time frame of Revelation would not the "little horn" according to the angel not have existed yet?
The little horn in Dan 8 came from Greece if I am not mistaken. Not rome.. Is this what you were referencing?

In dan 8, the little horn is said to come from the goat (greece) who was split into 4. Out of the 4 came the little horn.

This is antiochus epiphanies, the greece ruler who trampled jerusalem and slaughtered a pig in the temple. Commiting the abomination of desolation. And causing sacrifice to cease, because the temple was rendered unclean. (Abomination)

This is a precurser of the bigger little horn of revelation which comes out of the great beast of Rome,
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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The Josephus thing im so sick and tired of hearing about it, the Ad70 destruction was devastating no doubt, but lets not get carried away here. It was NOT the worst time in human history, by any stretch of the imagination.
Can you give an example of a worst time for Jerusalem that would fulfil all predictions of Christ about false prophets, famines, wars, signs in heavens, destruction of the temple and abomination?

Nothing in the WWII was even close to all those predictions.

You must also consider that Christ said that all guilt will be punished on this generation. Not on some generation in 1939.

Famines:
"The deserters give the Romans pitful reports of increasing famine in the city and attacks by insurgents performing house-to-house searches for food, beating and torturing those within. The wealthy are robbed and murdered....The victims of famine are dying in countless numbers. Hungry rebels like mad dogs stagger from house to house searching for food. Shoe leather and grass is gnawed on. "

False prophets:
"The populace, especially poor women and children, are persuaded by a "false prophet" to go up to the Temple court to receive deliverance from the Deity. The crowd of about 6,000 climbs onto the porticoes, which are set on fire by the Romans. All perish."


"There were many false prophets at the time, says Josephus, yet people had not paid attention to the genuine signs of destruction: a star resembling a sword standing over the city, a comet, a brilliant light around the altar, a vision of armed battalions in the sky, and voices in the Temple, along with the prophecies of a peasant crying 'Woe to Jerusalem.' "It is impossible for men to escape their fate, even though they foresee it."

Abomination:
"Romans carry standards into the sanctuary at the east gate and sacrifice to them. So much gold has been taken from Temple that the price of gold throughout Syria is halved. The priests are executed by Titus. "


1,000,000 dead:
Number of prisoners taken in the entire war: 97,000. Died during siege: 1,100,000. This large number during the siege was due to the Passover celebration, as Jews from many countries had been in the city for the festival when the siege began. Josephus tells skeptical readers this number is consistent with Cestius' population estimate under Nero.


Temple and Jerusalem destroyed:
Titus orders the whole city and Temple to be razed to the ground, leaving only the tallest towers and a small portion of the wall on the west. The Xth legion is left to garrison Jerusalem.


http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/warChronology7Fall.html
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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The little horn in Dan 8 came from Greece if I am not mistaken. Not rome.. Is this what you were referencing?

In dan 8, the little horn is said to come from the goat (greece) who was split into 4. Out of the 4 came the little horn.

This is antiochus epiphanies, the greece ruler who trampled jerusalem and slaughtered a pig in the temple. Commiting the abomination of desolation. And causing sacrifice to cease, because the temple was rendered unclean. (Abomination)

This is a precurser of the bigger little horn of revelation which comes out of the great beast of Rome,

yes, I was not meaning 8:24 but Daniel 7:24...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
yes, I was not meaning 8:24 but Daniel 7:24...
Ok, yes, the final beast. Or rome. Who will be personally defeated by christ at his return. Like the first beast, he too will commit an abomination which causes desolation as Spoken of by Dan 9 and pointed to by Jesus in Matt 24,
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
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I do not think this is set in stone, I think nuclear war is what threatens mankind, Jesus returns and puts an end to the war. I think some nukes are launched. This is what caused 1/3 to die. But jesus returns before all out war is launched, whch would wipe out mankind and all life on earth
Revelation 9:17-19 attributes the means of genocide to what appear to be tanks. But this is only after environmental pollution has created famine conditions in which the worlds leaders decide to enact a global genocide to resolve the issue.

Revelation 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Ok, yes, the final beast. Or rome. Who will be personally defeated by christ at his return. Like the first beast, he too will commit an abomination which causes desolation as Spoken of by Dan 9 and pointed to by Jesus in Matt 24,

Yes and then at the time the Revelation was received by John on Patmos the ten had not yet received their kingdoms and so as in Daniel 7:24 compared with Revelation 17:10 that little horn had not yet existed and had not yet set up the AOD?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I see it different, I see famin caused by many things, Polution, Warming (weather) and other things including overpopulation as we are seeing today.

I see the fire and brimstone as being nukes lauched by nations or another nation against I believe north and south america (which is 1/3 of the earth if we look at it) although I could be wrong..

Which is why these things are not set in stone, and we shoudl not fight to the death as some wish to do over these things.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes and then at the time the Revelation was received by John on Patmos the ten had not yet received their kingdoms and so as in Daniel 7:24 compared with Revelation 17:10 that little horn had not yet existed and had not yet set up the AOD?
Correct. Even today, those things have not yet been fulfilled. In 70 AD their was one rule (Caesar) who had been the rulling entity for centuries.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Correct. Even today, those things have not yet been fulfilled. In 70 AD their was one rule (Caesar) who had been the rulling entity for centuries.

lol, unless someone could provide something that shows it to be fulfilled from the writing of Revelation onward...