WHAT DOES "CHURCH" REALLY MEAN?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 14, 2018
52
28
18
#1
ek-klesia, the Greek word tranlated "church" comes from a root word, a verb, kaLEo which means "to call". The prefix "ek" means "out" so ek-kaLEo is a verb that means "to call out" and ek-klesia is a noun which means "the called out".

But something is missing and that is an inference. An inference isn't spoken out loud. It is supposed to be understood and assumed. If I ask for a glass of water it is inferred that I am thirsty and maybe hot. If I scream it is assumed or inferred that I am afraid or maybe angry or.... Something lies behind the scream which is inferred. There are many example of inference.

When God calls people "out of" this world He doesn't just leave them hanginig in space or spiritual limbo. Infered is the concept of "in to". What is this "in to"? It is "in to" fellowship with Him. God calls people out of the world and into fellowship with Him.

This brings us to the word "koinos" or "koinonia". Koinos means "common". It is the word used to denote the common Greek language of the day. It was called koine Greek. Everyone spoke it, thus everyone spoke it in common.

It is also the word the Jews used (when they spoke Greek) to identify foods they were forbidden to eat. Common foods were eaten by everyone and the Jews had very strict dietary laws which governed which foods they could and could not eat. Common foods are considered dirty or unclean by the Jews because they are a special people.

But then this Greek root word moves into the concept of having things in common, koinonia, which is what community and fellowship are all about. Fellowship with God means that He shares all that He has and is with those who answer His call to come out of the world and its way of living. Fellowship with other disciples means sharing all that we have and are with one another. This is what community life is all about.

God's communities are filled with disciples who call themselves anointed ones. This makes these groups of people ANOINTED COMMUNITIES a much better translation than churches or church.

If you study the word ek-klesia you find that there are three levels or designated groups of anointed communities. First there is the local level where disciples lived together in homes. Second there are city communities in which disciples join together to convert cities with the gospel. Convert enough cities and you can convert a nation. Convert enough nations and you can convert a world. And third there is the universal community which includes all disciples around the world who will be used by Jesus to convert this world for God.

In establishing city communities Paul used a Jewish concept called halakha. Back in those times a city built walls around it to keep out wild animals and marauders. There would be a main gate in the wall where the village elders would sit and do their duties. One of the things they did was discuss Jewish law and how it related to everyday life. This custom led to having trials right there at the gate. The people were free to witness a trial and even participate. It also led to control by the elders of what went in and out of the city. They were in control.

Paul used this same concept of halakha to establish city group elders. These were older men who were mature in faith and able to discern spirits. They protected the unity of the faith in their city and in a spiritual sense determined what came in and out of the city.

Sadly, denominationalism has destroyed the city community concept. Instead it is church vs church and doctrine vs doctrine. Do you think the Holy Spirit teaches different doctrines to different denominations? If He did he would be fighting against the very unity He is trying to establish.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#2
If you study church history, you will find that "city churches" didn't last much beyond the first century, long before "denominationalism" came along. Ten centuries of Catholicism removed the last vestiges of local fellowships maintained by the non-professional leaders.

Obviously the Holy Spirit is not the author of denominations, but merely criticizing their existence doesn't help. How would you go about resolving this entrenched situation? Who would you appoint to determine "correct doctrine" for everyone to teach and follow?
 
Sep 14, 2018
52
28
18
#3
If you study church history, you will find that "city churches" didn't last much beyond the first century, long before "denominationalism" came along. Ten centuries of Catholicism removed the last vestiges of local fellowships maintained by the non-professional leaders.

Obviously the Holy Spirit is not the author of denominations, but merely criticizing their existence doesn't help. How would you go about resolving this entrenched situation? Who would you appoint to determine "correct doctrine" for everyone to teach and follow?

Yes, you are right. By the time Constantine declared Christianity the religion of Rome in 325AD city churches had become dominated by one man and were no longer functioning as city churches. Later on Augustine, the greatest heretic that ever lived, combined Greek philoshophy with apostolic doctrine to create the doctrinal foundations of the Roman Catholic church. His goal was to create an institution that would dominate governments and through governments all of Western mankind, which it did for over 1000 years. Sadly he is regarded as a church father by both Catholics AND Protestants.

Denominations did not really begin until the 1500's when the Catholic church lost its stranglehold on scripture, which was especially influenced by the invention of the printing press around 1450AD.

Today it is estimated that 85%-90% of people who call themselves Christians and attend church are affliated with a denomination. That means that the great majority who visit this site daily are denominational Christians. These people are ignorant of the true anointing of the Holy Spirit. Their leaders have made "excuse" doctrines concerning this anointing that are filled with reasons why they don't speak in tongues, or pray in the Spirit, or manifest spiritual gifts, or live in overcoming victory, or turn the world upside down.

If you read my posts you will see that I am focused. My focus is to shake up denominational Christians. To show them the failures of denominational Christianity. To show them where they are and where they should be. To warn them that the coming world-wide economic collapse is going to force them to make a choice. Becoming a true disciple living in anointed community will be the only way to survive. The coming revival, which is directly related to the economic collapse, must start with Christians in the churches.

The answer to deciding who establishes "correct doctrine" is two fold: to return to an assembly which allows the Holy Spirit to direct it; and to look to the ministries God gave to His people --- which are apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and shepherds (not pastors) --- for leadership.

Having said all this, my focus includes spirit-filled Christians who are also NOT LIVING LIFE AS DISCIPLES! They are the ones who need to listen to the Spirit and begin obeying Jesus as He is taking back this world for God.

I am certainly not the only one with this message.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#4
Yes, you are right. By the time Constantine declared Christianity the religion of Rome in 325AD city churches had become dominated by one man and were no longer functioning as city churches. Later on Augustine, the greatest heretic that ever lived, combined Greek philoshophy with apostolic doctrine to create the doctrinal foundations of the Roman Catholic church. His goal was to create an institution that would dominate governments and through governments all of Western mankind, which it did for over 1000 years. Sadly he is regarded as a church father by both Catholics AND Protestants.

Denominations did not really begin until the 1500's when the Catholic church lost its stranglehold on scripture, which was especially influenced by the invention of the printing press around 1450AD.

Today it is estimated that 85%-90% of people who call themselves Christians and attend church are affliated with a denomination. That means that the great majority who visit this site daily are denominational Christians. These people are ignorant of the true anointing of the Holy Spirit. Their leaders have made "excuse" doctrines concerning this anointing that are filled with reasons why they don't speak in tongues, or pray in the Spirit, or manifest spiritual gifts, or live in overcoming victory, or turn the world upside down.

If you read my posts you will see that I am focused. My focus is to shake up denominational Christians. To show them the failures of denominational Christianity. To show them where they are and where they should be. To warn them that the coming world-wide economic collapse is going to force them to make a choice. Becoming a true disciple living in anointed community will be the only way to survive. The coming revival, which is directly related to the economic collapse, must start with Christians in the churches.

The answer to deciding who establishes "correct doctrine" is two fold: to return to an assembly which allows the Holy Spirit to direct it; and to look to the ministries God gave to His people --- which are apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and shepherds (not pastors) --- for leadership.

Having said all this, my focus includes spirit-filled Christians who are also NOT LIVING LIFE AS DISCIPLES! They are the ones who need to listen to the Spirit and begin obeying Jesus as He is taking back this world for God.

I am certainly not the only one with this message.
A couple of things: first, please provide a couple of sources to support your criticism of Augustine.

Second, please explain why "pastors" are unacceptable when the word means the same as "shepherds".
 
Sep 14, 2018
52
28
18
#5
A couple of things: first, please provide a couple of sources to support your criticism of Augustine.


To be honest I could find no "supporting sources" for my criticism of Augustine but this doesn't mean they don't exist. To criticize Augustine all I do is examine the "doctrines" he proposed and/or supported.

1. Infant baptism. The purpose of water baptism is to acknowledge sin and be cleansed of sin. How can an infant know it has sinned. This "doctrine" was used to "convert" heathens while they were still heathens and make them captives of the Roman Catholic church (RCc).

2. Forgiveness of sin. This had to be accomplished through confession to a priest of the RCc. In fact, all of his "doctrines" involving the sacraments (birth, death, marriage, baptism, confession, communion) require the presence and participation of a priest. This is all about control.

3. Salvation. His views of salvation as believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and following ALL the teachings of the RCc in order to make it to heaven have affected Protestants as well as Catholics. Sorry, but this falls far short of God's intended purpose for those who believe. God's goal is not to get you to heaven. God's goal is to get heaven in you. (More on salvation in another post.)

4. ETERNAL security. It was Augustine who promoted the concept of eternal life as well as eternal hell. If you study the Greek word which is translated "eternal" (a Latin word) you will find that it means agelong or agelasting or pertainiing to an age. It does NOT mean FOREVER. Man measures time chronologically in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, month and years. God measures time in ages.

5. Purgatory. Somewhere between death and hell lies purgatory where a person had to "pay" for any unforgiven sins. This led to the practice of praying for the dead and then paying the RCc for their sins. Later on this "paying for sins" was expanded with "indulgences" which was a way to avoid punishment for sins. It's all about money.

6. Excommunication. Augustine promoted this doctrine to force government leaders (back then usually kings and queens) to do what the RCc told them to do OR ELSE! The OR ELSE is that they would be denied entrance into heaven FOREVER! Paul used excommunication to correct a sinning brother, not to make governments kneel to the RCc.

(another answer here will address shepherd vs pastor.)
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,510
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#6
Yes, you are right. By the time Constantine declared Christianity the religion of Rome in 325AD city churches had become dominated by one man and were no longer functioning as city churches. Later on Augustine, the greatest heretic that ever lived, combined Greek philoshophy with apostolic doctrine to create the doctrinal foundations of the Roman Catholic church. His goal was to create an institution that would dominate governments and through governments all of Western mankind, which it did for over 1000 years. Sadly he is regarded as a church father by both Catholics AND Protestants.

Denominations did not really begin until the 1500's when the Catholic church lost its stranglehold on scripture, which was especially influenced by the invention of the printing press around 1450AD.

Today it is estimated that 85%-90% of people who call themselves Christians and attend church are affliated with a denomination. That means that the great majority who visit this site daily are denominational Christians. These people are ignorant of the true anointing of the Holy Spirit. Their leaders have made "excuse" doctrines concerning this anointing that are filled with reasons why they don't speak in tongues, or pray in the Spirit, or manifest spiritual gifts, or live in overcoming victory, or turn the world upside down.

If you read my posts you will see that I am focused. My focus is to shake up denominational Christians. To show them the failures of denominational Christianity. To show them where they are and where they should be. To warn them that the coming world-wide economic collapse is going to force them to make a choice. Becoming a true disciple living in anointed community will be the only way to survive. The coming revival, which is directly related to the economic collapse, must start with Christians in the churches.

The answer to deciding who establishes "correct doctrine" is two fold: to return to an assembly which allows the Holy Spirit to direct it; and to look to the ministries God gave to His people --- which are apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and shepherds (not pastors) --- for leadership.

Having said all this, my focus includes spirit-filled Christians who are also NOT LIVING LIFE AS DISCIPLES! They are the ones who need to listen to the Spirit and begin obeying Jesus as He is taking back this world for God.

I am certainly not the only one with this message.
Now that's a breath of fresh air. Thank you, It is inspiring to hear some one else say what I've believed so many years. They will hate you for speaking out against the establishment but they hated The Lord also for it. Keep up the good work in Jesus name.
 
Jul 10, 2018
283
23
18
#7
Yes, you are right. By the time Constantine declared Christianity the religion of Rome in 325AD city churches had become dominated by one man and were no longer functioning as city churches. Later on Augustine, the greatest heretic that ever lived, combined Greek philoshophy with apostolic doctrine to create the doctrinal foundations of the Roman Catholic church. His goal was to create an institution that would dominate governments and through governments all of Western mankind, which it did for over 1000 years. Sadly he is regarded as a church father by both Catholics AND Protestants.

Denominations did not really begin until the 1500's when the Catholic church lost its stranglehold on scripture, which was especially influenced by the invention of the printing press around 1450AD.

Today it is estimated that 85%-90% of people who call themselves Christians and attend church are affliated with a denomination. That means that the great majority who visit this site daily are denominational Christians. These people are ignorant of the true anointing of the Holy Spirit. Their leaders have made "excuse" doctrines concerning this anointing that are filled with reasons why they don't speak in tongues, or pray in the Spirit, or manifest spiritual gifts, or live in overcoming victory, or turn the world upside down.

If you read my posts you will see that I am focused. My focus is to shake up denominational Christians. To show them the failures of denominational Christianity. To show them where they are and where they should be. To warn them that the coming world-wide economic collapse is going to force them to make a choice. Becoming a true disciple living in anointed community will be the only way to survive. The coming revival, which is directly related to the economic collapse, must start with Christians in the churches.

The answer to deciding who establishes "correct doctrine" is two fold: to return to an assembly which allows the Holy Spirit to direct it; and to look to the ministries God gave to His people --- which are apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and shepherds (not pastors) --- for leadership.

Having said all this, my focus includes spirit-filled Christians who are also NOT LIVING LIFE AS DISCIPLES! They are the ones who need to listen to the Spirit and begin obeying Jesus as He is taking back this world for God.

I am certainly not the only one with this message.
Very well spoke and very correct in my view.
But I might ad that we have to test the sSpirits to know who
is preaching the truth. For one to say one thing and another
to say another thing and both claiming to have the Holy Spirit
exists today, yesterday and will tomorrow.
What will be the authority.
The Bible.
Which Bible
For us English speaking folks, I would say
the KJV or the 2 written in English just before it.
The Bible simply states how things were
and how they will be. Most denominations
that believe in Christ get their theology from
the same Book. The simple fact that there
are 100's of differing theology just among
the CHristians shows there is something
seriously wrong. And the Bible talks simply
on that also. Jesus said,
"why do you not understand my speech?"
if you read on its says, "You believe your
father the devil."
It was said people wouldn't understand
His simply spoken Word. And as is obvious
99% don't. But if great effort was put
into showing how it is defined, by say
an unbiased English scholar, the simply
stated Word would settle all disputes.
You can tell who has the Spirit and who
doesn't. Those who ignore the simply
stated.... well they don't have it. They
have a spirit that lies to them.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,992
927
113
#8
ek-klesia, the Greek word tranlated "church" comes from a root word, a verb, kaLEo which means "to call". The prefix "ek" means "out" so ek-kaLEo is a verb that means "to call out" and ek-klesia is a noun which means "the called out".

But something is missing and that is an inference. An inference isn't spoken out loud. It is supposed to be understood and assumed. If I ask for a glass of water it is inferred that I am thirsty and maybe hot. If I scream it is assumed or inferred that I am afraid or maybe angry or.... Something lies behind the scream which is inferred. There are many example of inference.

When God calls people "out of" this world He doesn't just leave them hanginig in space or spiritual limbo. Infered is the concept of "in to". What is this "in to"? It is "in to" fellowship with Him. God calls people out of the world and into fellowship with Him.

This brings us to the word "koinos" or "koinonia". Koinos means "common". It is the word used to denote the common Greek language of the day. It was called koine Greek. Everyone spoke it, thus everyone spoke it in common.

It is also the word the Jews used (when they spoke Greek) to identify foods they were forbidden to eat. Common foods were eaten by everyone and the Jews had very strict dietary laws which governed which foods they could and could not eat. Common foods are considered dirty or unclean by the Jews because they are a special people.

But then this Greek root word moves into the concept of having things in common, koinonia, which is what community and fellowship are all about. Fellowship with God means that He shares all that He has and is with those who answer His call to come out of the world and its way of living. Fellowship with other disciples means sharing all that we have and are with one another. This is what community life is all about.

God's communities are filled with disciples who call themselves anointed ones. This makes these groups of people ANOINTED COMMUNITIES a much better translation than churches or church.

If you study the word ek-klesia you find that there are three levels or designated groups of anointed communities. First there is the local level where disciples lived together in homes. Second there are city communities in which disciples join together to convert cities with the gospel. Convert enough cities and you can convert a nation. Convert enough nations and you can convert a world. And third there is the universal community which includes all disciples around the world who will be used by Jesus to convert this world for God.

In establishing city communities Paul used a Jewish concept called halakha. Back in those times a city built walls around it to keep out wild animals and marauders. There would be a main gate in the wall where the village elders would sit and do their duties. One of the things they did was discuss Jewish law and how it related to everyday life. This custom led to having trials right there at the gate. The people were free to witness a trial and even participate. It also led to control by the elders of what went in and out of the city. They were in control.

Paul used this same concept of halakha to establish city group elders. These were older men who were mature in faith and able to discern spirits. They protected the unity of the faith in their city and in a spiritual sense determined what came in and out of the city.

Sadly, denominationalism has destroyed the city community concept. Instead it is church vs church and doctrine vs doctrine. Do you think the Holy Spirit teaches different doctrines to different denominations? If He did he would be fighting against the very unity He is trying to establish.
Followers of Christ were called Disciples, then the original 12 chosen and called as apostles. After that believers were also called Christian first at Antioch, then saved believers were also called by their name of their leader, or the place where they stay because of persecution. Christ calls his own “my church” it’s not anointed communities. They are called out by Christ during his earthly ministry. That far would be the beginning of calling believers until now from the beginning of the 12 and to those daily who are saved, baptized converts ‘till he comes.
 
Sep 14, 2018
52
28
18
#9
Second, please explain why "pastors" are unacceptable when the word means the same as "shepherds".

This is my response to your second request.

There is only 1 reference that changes the translation incorrectly from shepherd to pastor (Eph 4:11). This came about as denominations wanted a word to support their man-made organizational structure. By changing the translation from shepherd to pastor the name of their leaders would carry some weight, i.e. make pastors one of the 5 ministries God gave to the church. Actually most denominations combine the concept of pastor and teacher because they don't really honor the other ministries.

Jesus said not to call men by titles. Why did He say this? Because titles create division, i.e. clergy vs laity, which His communities should never support. There is no clergy in Christ's anointed communities. All disciples are equal and anyone can be used by the Holy Spirit in any way.

It is rather obvious that denominational churches are patterned after the Levitical priesthood. One guy in charge; a paid professional whose job is to keep the people happy; a manager who is titled "pastor"; above, better, and in charge of worshipers; the receiver and deliverer of God's word for the group. This structure is very very far from what Jesus wants.
 
Sep 14, 2018
52
28
18
#10
Very well spoke and very correct in my view.
But I might ad that we have to test the sSpirits to know who
is preaching the truth. For one to say one thing and another
to say another thing and both claiming to have the Holy Spirit
exists today, yesterday and will tomorrow.
What will be the authority.
The Bible.
Which Bible
For us English speaking folks, I would say
the KJV or the 2 written in English just before it.
The Bible simply states how things were
and how they will be. Most denominations
that believe in Christ get their theology from
the same Book. The simple fact that there
are 100's of differing theology just among
the CHristians shows there is something
seriously wrong. And the Bible talks simply
on that also. Jesus said,
"why do you not understand my speech?"
if you read on its says, "You believe your
father the devil."
It was said people wouldn't understand
His simply spoken Word. And as is obvious
99% don't. But if great effort was put
into showing how it is defined, by say
an unbiased English scholar, the simply
stated Word would settle all disputes.
You can tell who has the Spirit and who
doesn't. Those who ignore the simply
stated.... well they don't have it. They
have a spirit that lies to them.

RIGHT ON! To be able to test or discern spirits a person must have THE Spirit. But everyone has a Bible and that makes them an expert about everything. :rolleyes:
 
Sep 14, 2018
52
28
18
#11
Followers of Christ were called Disciples, then the original 12 chosen and called as apostles. After that believers were also called Christian first at Antioch, then saved believers were also called by their name of their leader, or the place where they stay because of persecution. Christ calls his own “my church” it’s not anointed communities. They are called out by Christ during his earthly ministry. That far would be the beginning of calling believers until now from the beginning of the 12 and to those daily who are saved, baptized converts ‘till he comes.

Please read my post "what is a disciple?"
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,228
6,526
113
#12
Pastor and shepherd are used interchangeably since I have had understanding.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary. Whaen language usage is dictated by any person or organization to suit their dogmas it is fascism.


  • pastor A guardian; a keeper; specifically Eccl, a minister having the charge of a church and parish.
  • pastor A shepherd; one who has the care of flocks and herds.
  • pastor (Zoöl) A species of starling (Pastor roseus), native of the plains of Western Asia and Eastern Europe. Its head is crested and glossy greenish black, and its back is rosy. It feeds largely upon locusts.
 
Jul 10, 2018
283
23
18
#13
RIGHT ON! To be able to test or discern spirits a person must have THE Spirit. But everyone has a Bible and that makes them an expert about everything. :rolleyes:
Checking ones own sSpirit to see if it aligns with scripture.
Example. A person believes a loving merciful just God casts His children into eternal punishment.
Scripture says all peoples are saved. That would be a spirit blinding that person.

Here.... test your sSpirit

1 Tim 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer
reproach,because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that
believe.
11 These things command and teach.

One with Spirit can sit and freely discuss this passage
One without could only ignore it and discuss other

Or this one.

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in
due time.


Romans 11
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Cor 4
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The definition of Church could be many things depending on who you are talking to.
The definition of Church in regards to the KJV of the Bible are those who band together
and teach then go out preach these things:


Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Heb 8
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

I could go on and on and on.
These and many other simply stated passages are what was
preached by the original Church of Jesus.

I have been to every type of church in my cities that say they are Christians...
Not one of them ever preach these things. They freak out when I do. Lol.

So... check your sSpirit. Check your churches sSpirit.
Read your Bible. Preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ


Luke 2
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Blessings
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#14
Respectfully, you have not provided what I requested. Once again, please provide a couple of sources that support your criticism of Augustine. Since you are asserting that he proposed the quoted doctrines, please provide references demonstrating such. What the Catholics did with his ideas doesn't make him a heretic.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#15
This is my response to your second request.

There is only 1 reference that changes the translation incorrectly from shepherd to pastor (Eph 4:11). This came about as denominations wanted a word to support their man-made organizational structure. By changing the translation from shepherd to pastor the name of their leaders would carry some weight, i.e. make pastors one of the 5 ministries God gave to the church. Actually most denominations combine the concept of pastor and teacher because they don't really honor the other ministries.

Jesus said not to call men by titles. Why did He say this? Because titles create division, i.e. clergy vs laity, which His communities should never support. There is no clergy in Christ's anointed communities. All disciples are equal and anyone can be used by the Holy Spirit in any way.

It is rather obvious that denominational churches are patterned after the Levitical priesthood. One guy in charge; a paid professional whose job is to keep the people happy; a manager who is titled "pastor"; above, better, and in charge of worshipers; the receiver and deliverer of God's word for the group. This structure is very very far from what Jesus wants.
I'll have to check the Greek regarding your first paragraph... later.

The Levitical priesthood is not "one guy in charge, a paid professional ..." so denominational churches are not patterned after that. That said, I agree that the governance structure of many denominational churches is inconsistent with what Jesus taught.

The only clear model in the NT is a plurality of elders directing the affairs of the local church. The so-called ministry gifts are not upheld as "leadership roles" in Scripture.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#16
This is my response to your second request.

There is only 1 reference that changes the translation incorrectly from shepherd to pastor (Eph 4:11). This came about as denominations wanted a word to support their man-made organizational structure. By changing the translation from shepherd to pastor the name of their leaders would carry some weight, i.e. make pastors one of the 5 ministries God gave to the church. Actually most denominations combine the concept of pastor and teacher because they don't really honor the other ministries.

Jesus said not to call men by titles. Why did He say this? Because titles create division, i.e. clergy vs laity, which His communities should never support. There is no clergy in Christ's anointed communities. All disciples are equal and anyone can be used by the Holy Spirit in any way.

It is rather obvious that denominational churches are patterned after the Levitical priesthood. One guy in charge; a paid professional whose job is to keep the people happy; a manager who is titled "pastor"; above, better, and in charge of worshipers; the receiver and deliverer of God's word for the group. This structure is very very far from what Jesus wants.
To your first paragraph, now that I've had a chance to check:

On what authority do you assert that the translators used "pastors" incorrectly in Ephesians 4:11? On what sources (more than one, please) are you drawing?
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,530
113
77
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#17
RIGHT ON! To be able to test or discern spirits a person must have THE Spirit. But everyone has a Bible and that makes them an expert about everything. :rolleyes:
Hello deardean, like you said we have to try the spirits. Satan is very much into the religion business. He is transformed into "an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14 ). Antichrist has been running mainstream Christianity for centuries. It is time for the true disciples to come forward. Elijah is upon us.
mi-sun-flwr.png
 
Sep 14, 2018
52
28
18
#18
To your first paragraph, now that I've had a chance to check:

On what authority do you assert that the translators used "pastors" incorrectly in Ephesians 4:11? On what sources (more than one, please) are you drawing?

Now you introduce a real problem and that is translating the Greek. The KJV is essentially a document produced by Roman Catholics priests. To understand WHY we need to examine history. Old Henry VIII was desperate for an heir, i.e. a son, and went through several women trying to create one. In 1527AD he petitioned the pope in Rome to grant him a second annulment. The pope refused. So Henry as King of England was the first government leader to reject the pope as a spiritual head. By 1534AD the English Reformation was well on its way with the Church of England and King Henry as its head. But what really changed? The structure of the church was the same. The priests were the same. The doctrines were the same. The sacraments were the same. Very little was changed except that England was free of the pope's control.

Next in leadership came Mary, Henry's daughter, who remained a staunch Catholic. Then Elizabeth who was Protestant. Then James, the son of Mary, inherited the thrones of Scotland, Ireland and England. He was basically a Catholic. He commissioned an English version of the Bible in 1604AD. This was not completed and released until 1611AD. It included the Old Testament, the New Testament, and 27 Apocryphal books. In 1629AD it went through its first editorial process. With the development of stereotype printing at the beginning of the 19th century, this version of the Bible became the most widely printed book in history, almost all such printings presenting the standard text of 1769 extensively re-edited by Benjamin Blayney at Oxford, and nearly always omitting the books of the Apocrypha. (from Wikipedia).

This translation is filled with errors. When the NEW KJV was produced the editors found over 20,000 errors, most very minor, but still. Some of these errors were unintentional but some very intentional. King James, in an effort to support a doctrine about the divine right of kings, told the translators to change Rev 1:6 from the correct translation "kingdom of priests" to "kings and priests". No where does the Bible teach that followers of Jesus are kings. Other words were intentionally NOT translated. Baptism as an example is a Greek word where they only changed the Greek letters into English letters, called a transliteration. This is because the practice of the Church of England as well as the Roman Catholic church was to sprinkle and baptism means "to cleanse by dipping". If you study the Greek you will find many more examples.

So translators play a key role in assigning meaning to any Greek word. And translators are full of bias and doctrinal prejudice, which is exactly what I pointed out regarding the word pastor.

You are obviously trained in modern methods of critique and analysis by insisting on "sources" for everything I say. Jesus was also condemned by religious educators for refusing to follow this pattern even though He often produced scripture to back His arguments.

P.S. Check out wikipedia for a good concise look at Augustine and his works. Then put aside the obvious preference and bias to make Augustine a hero.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#19
Now you introduce a real problem and that is translating the Greek. The KJV is essentially a document produced by Roman Catholics priests....

So translators play a key role in assigning meaning to any Greek word. And translators are full of bias and doctrinal prejudice, which is exactly what I pointed out regarding the word pastor.
I don't need an irrelevant history lesson, thanks all the same.

You are obviously trained in modern methods of critique and analysis by insisting on "sources" for everything I say. Jesus was also condemned by religious educators for refusing to follow this pattern even though He often produced scripture to back His arguments.
You ain't Jesus, and once again you are making assertions without a shred of actual evidence.

P.S. Check out wikipedia for a good concise look at Augustine and his works.
Fallacy: burden of proof reversal. I will not consider your assertions to have any merit if you resist providing even a single source to support them.

Then put aside the obvious preference and bias to make Augustine a hero.
Oh that's rich: you can't support your own assertions, so you attack me instead. How about you back up your accusation and quote even a single statement I have made in support of Augustine.