Poverty in Spirit

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emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
355
92
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#1
“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” – Matthew 5:3

All through scriptures, it is very evident that God delights in the prosperity and greatness of his children. As a matter of fact, the scripture tells us that the Lord has bequeathed all his creation to his children—The Church.

He has willed his ministers, the world, death, life, present things and things to come to us believers (1Corinthians 3:22). And I have expounded this fact in my article “All Are Yours”.

All through scriptures, it is evident that the majority of the people that walked with God were made great in all ramifications. Including the chosen nation—Israel. The Lord says we shall be the head and not the tail. He says we shall be above only, and not beneath…

Then again we are told in scriptures that the Lord has given us (Christians) all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). Hence every believer in Christ Jesus is prosperous or rich in all ramifications through redemption and divine heritage. Now, with the above point established, we want to understand what Jesus meant when he said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit

What does he mean by being poor in the spirit? It is very important we understand this statement, because many Christians over the ages, have erroneously interpreted the above statement of the Lord to mean material or financial poverty…

But Jesus never implied that in the context of his statement; hence he was specific. He didn’t say, “Blessed are the materially or financially poor”. Rather he says “blessed are the poor in spirit”. Because someone can be materially or financially poor, and yet not be poor in spirit.

Then on the other hand, someone can as well be materially or financially rich but poor in spirit. Such was the likes of Abraham, Job, Isaac, David, etc.

So What Does Poverty in Spirit Mean?

To better understand poverty in spirit we have to consider the biblical examples the Lord spoke against their attitudes with wealth. Firstly, let’s consider the fellow that ran to Jesus to ask him how to inherit eternal life (Mark 10:17-20).

After his conversation with the Lord, the Lord asked him to go sell all he had and give them to the poor, and come, take up the cross and follow him ( Mark 10:21).

When he received that instruction from the Lord, the word of God says he was sad at the saying and went away grieved: for he had great possessions (Mark 10:22). Now the problem of this young man was not the fact that he had great possessions. No, that couldn’t have been the case; if it was, the Lord would have as well been displeased with Abraham, Job, Isaac and Jacob…

The major challenge of this rich fellow, as it is with many today, is hearty attachment to their possessions. How did I know? I knew this by the Lord’s clarifying statement in verse 24 of the same scripture (Mark 10: 24). Here are the exact words of the Lord Jesus; “Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God”.

So the challenge the Lord had with this rich fellow, wasn’t his wealth or great possessions. But rather his trust or hearty attachment to his possessions that hindered him from selling them off, giving them away to the poor and following him as the Lord instructed him.

That said, let’s consider another example. Because a matter must be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

“ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot… Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked”—Revelation 3:14 & 17.

The same issue comes up again in the above scripture as we saw in the first scriptural example. This fellow became lukewarm concerning God and the things of God as a result of material possessions. And the Lord was displeased with him, not because of his possessions but with his material idolatry.

And the Lord was specific about that in his rebuke. He says; “Because thou sayest I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing”. The Lord didn’t say “because you are rich and increased with good and have need of nothing”. So it wasn’t about his possession, but about the statement of his heart.

It was about his material attachment or attitude in the heart.

So from the above two examples, we can rightly define poverty in spirit to mean, a holistic trust in the Lord, and absolute detachment from possessions, position or achievements. Poverty in spirit means giving up on everything you possess to the Lord in your heart…

It means owning everything, yet submitting all to the Lord in your heart (your spirit). Poverty in spirit means, “Not letting your possessions or position get into your heart or your head”.

Poverty of the spirit means not putting anything or the possession of anything or position above God and his instructions in your heart. Thus poverty in spirit is a matter of the heart or spirit. It is not a function of material or financial possessions because like I wrote earlier, one can be financially or materially poor, yet not be poor in spirit.

Key to Poverty in Spirit

The major biblical key for maintaining poverty in the spirit (human spirit), no matter the level of your elevation in life… Is the realisation that we are actually, only receivers, not achievers. We must realise that whatever we own, possess, know; the heights we have attained, the goals we have achieved etc…

Are all given to us by the Lord. We can receive absolutely nothing except it be given us from heaven (John 3:27). When this revelation dawn in our hearts or spirits, and we walk in it on daily basis, our ego will be humbled.

And as such, we won’t have any need to glory in ourselves or be high-minded over anything. But rather, we’ll always give all the glory to God for all things at all times (see 1 Corinthians 4:7). And along the same line, we’ll also render our bodies and possessions as living sacrifice unto God.

This is exactly what poverty in spirit mean. And the Lord will have us make this attitude our lifestyle. For he says the kingdom of heaven is the heritage or possession of the poor in spirit.

The Lord does not have any problem with making us great to any level in life. But he does have a problem with our being high-minded and Idolising the greatness or possessions.

I pray the Lord make this attitude of poverty in spirit a part of your new nature in Jesus Name!

Remain Blessed!

Emeke Odili
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#2
Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Lk 6:20

Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom?
James 2:5

We can clearly see that Christ meant materially poor and that their riches are in faith (not in material things) and in inheriting the kingdom. This means to be blessed in spirit/Spirit.

Therefore the proper translation of Mt should be:

"The poor are blessed in spirit/Spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Mt 5:3


To be poor in Spirit/spirit is never a good thing in the Bible and such a translation is inconsistent with the rest of biblical teachings, IMO.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
355
92
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#3
Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Lk 6:20

Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom?
James 2:5

We can clearly see that Christ meant materially poor and that their riches are in faith (not in material things) and in inheriting the kingdom. This means to be blessed in spirit/Spirit.

Therefore the proper translation of Mt should be:

"The poor are blessed in spirit/Spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Mt 5:3


To be poor in Spirit/spirit is never a good thing in the Bible and such a translation is inconsistent with the rest of biblical teachings, IMO.
When interpreted in the right context as the OP you'll discover that Matthew is consistent with the rest of biblical teachings.

And yes, to be poor in spirit is virtuous and the Lord Jesus had it in abundance. For instance, in spite of the fact that he created everything, and he is God, the word of God says he didn't count equality with God a thing to be grabbed but rather, he made himself of no repute (I am paraphrasing here, and I am sure you understand the scripture I'm paraphrasing).

Such attitude is indeed poverty in the spirit.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#4
When interpreted in the right context as the OP you'll discover that Matthew is consistent with the rest of biblical teachings.

And yes, to be poor in spirit is virtuous and the Lord Jesus had it in abundance. For instance, in spite of the fact that he created everything, and he is God, the word of God says he didn't count equality with God a thing to be grabbed but rather, he made himself of no repute (I am paraphrasing here, and I am sure you understand the scripture I'm paraphrasing).

Such attitude is indeed poverty in the spirit.
There is no example in the Bible that says that to be poor in Spirit is a good thing, virtuous or even something that implies inheritance of the kingdom of God.
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
113
#5
Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus. I love You! I give You praise and honor; I Glorify and magnify and bless Your Holy Name – Hallelujah! Father God, I humbly come to You, asking for Your grace and mercy; Your help, power and anointing. Let Your Spirit descend upon me and perfect that which concerns me. I recognize my moral and spiritual poverty, for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. It is of Your mercies that I am not consumed, because Your compassion fails not. O wretched and vile man that I am! At my best state is altogether vanity. I know I am unable to serve You in my own will power, self-will, strength, ability, and power. Without Jesus, I can do nothing. But today I confess and place and maintain my Faith exclusively in Your beloved Son Jesus in whom You are well please (and whom I will listen to) and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, so that His life would be lived through me. And I receive all the benefits of this Resurrection Life by understanding that we have been planted together (Christ and myself) in the likeness of His Death (Romans 6:3-5). Lord, I receive all that You paid such a great price for. Let it be so, In Jesus name I pray – Amen.
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
113
#6
Luke 9:23 - And He said to them all, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Denial of self is recognizing my moral and spiritual poverty; for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing (Romans 7:18). It is knowing and understanding that I am unable to serve God in my own will power, self-will, strength, ability, and power. We see this in the first three "Beatitudes."


Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Matthew 5:4

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

Take up his cross is seen in Matthew 5:6; Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I am filled by God's provisions (GRACE) found in Christ by placing my Faith exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified (Believing who Jesus is, and what Jesus has done). Therefore I receive all the benefits of this "Resurrection Life" by understanding that we have been planted together [Christ and ourselves] in the likeness of His Death [Romans 6:5, Psalm 103:2].


Romans 8:13, Zechariah 4:6 - Without Jesus you can do nothing (John 15:5)!!!!!

Without the knowledge of the Cross for sanctification, you will die (spiritually).


Pastor David Borg - JSM
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#7
New Life Version
Matthew 5:3 Those who know there is nothing good in themselves are happy, because the holy nation of heaven is theirs.

Easy to read version
Matthew 5:3 Great blessings belong to those who know they are spiritually in need.[a]
God’s kingdom belongs to them.

Gods Word Translation
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are those who recognize they are spiritually helpless.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

Its easier to see that the Lord is not speaking about material wealth here when looking at different translations.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This is spiritual fruit the Lord is talking about here and reiterates what He said in Matthew 5
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#8
“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” – Matthew 5:3

All through scriptures, it is very evident that God delights in the prosperity and greatness of his children. As a matter of fact, the scripture tells us that the Lord has bequeathed all his creation to his children—The Church.

He has willed his ministers, the world, death, life, present things and things to come to us believers (1Corinthians 3:22). And I have expounded this fact in my article “All Are Yours”.

All through scriptures, it is evident that the majority of the people that walked with God were made great in all ramifications. Including the chosen nation—Israel. The Lord says we shall be the head and not the tail. He says we shall be above only, and not beneath…

Then again we are told in scriptures that the Lord has given us (Christians) all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). Hence every believer in Christ Jesus is prosperous or rich in all ramifications through redemption and divine heritage. Now, with the above point established, we want to understand what Jesus meant when he said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit

What does he mean by being poor in the spirit? It is very important we understand this statement, because many Christians over the ages, have erroneously interpreted the above statement of the Lord to mean material or financial poverty…

But Jesus never implied that in the context of his statement; hence he was specific. He didn’t say, “Blessed are the materially or financially poor”. Rather he says “blessed are the poor in spirit”. Because someone can be materially or financially poor, and yet not be poor in spirit.

Then on the other hand, someone can as well be materially or financially rich but poor in spirit. Such was the likes of Abraham, Job, Isaac, David, etc.

So What Does Poverty in Spirit Mean?

To better understand poverty in spirit we have to consider the biblical examples the Lord spoke against their attitudes with wealth. Firstly, let’s consider the fellow that ran to Jesus to ask him how to inherit eternal life (Mark 10:17-20).

After his conversation with the Lord, the Lord asked him to go sell all he had and give them to the poor, and come, take up the cross and follow him ( Mark 10:21).

When he received that instruction from the Lord, the word of God says he was sad at the saying and went away grieved: for he had great possessions (Mark 10:22). Now the problem of this young man was not the fact that he had great possessions. No, that couldn’t have been the case; if it was, the Lord would have as well been displeased with Abraham, Job, Isaac and Jacob…

The major challenge of this rich fellow, as it is with many today, is hearty attachment to their possessions. How did I know? I knew this by the Lord’s clarifying statement in verse 24 of the same scripture (Mark 10: 24). Here are the exact words of the Lord Jesus; “Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God”.

So the challenge the Lord had with this rich fellow, wasn’t his wealth or great possessions. But rather his trust or hearty attachment to his possessions that hindered him from selling them off, giving them away to the poor and following him as the Lord instructed him.

That said, let’s consider another example. Because a matter must be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

“ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot… Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked”—Revelation 3:14 & 17.

The same issue comes up again in the above scripture as we saw in the first scriptural example. This fellow became lukewarm concerning God and the things of God as a result of material possessions. And the Lord was displeased with him, not because of his possessions but with his material idolatry.

And the Lord was specific about that in his rebuke. He says; “Because thou sayest I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing”. The Lord didn’t say “because you are rich and increased with good and have need of nothing”. So it wasn’t about his possession, but about the statement of his heart.

It was about his material attachment or attitude in the heart.

So from the above two examples, we can rightly define poverty in spirit to mean, a holistic trust in the Lord, and absolute detachment from possessions, position or achievements. Poverty in spirit means giving up on everything you possess to the Lord in your heart…

It means owning everything, yet submitting all to the Lord in your heart (your spirit). Poverty in spirit means, “Not letting your possessions or position get into your heart or your head”.

Poverty of the spirit means not putting anything or the possession of anything or position above God and his instructions in your heart. Thus poverty in spirit is a matter of the heart or spirit. It is not a function of material or financial possessions because like I wrote earlier, one can be financially or materially poor, yet not be poor in spirit.

Key to Poverty in Spirit

The major biblical key for maintaining poverty in the spirit (human spirit), no matter the level of your elevation in life… Is the realisation that we are actually, only receivers, not achievers. We must realise that whatever we own, possess, know; the heights we have attained, the goals we have achieved etc…

Are all given to us by the Lord. We can receive absolutely nothing except it be given us from heaven (John 3:27). When this revelation dawn in our hearts or spirits, and we walk in it on daily basis, our ego will be humbled.

And as such, we won’t have any need to glory in ourselves or be high-minded over anything. But rather, we’ll always give all the glory to God for all things at all times (see 1 Corinthians 4:7). And along the same line, we’ll also render our bodies and possessions as living sacrifice unto God.

This is exactly what poverty in spirit mean. And the Lord will have us make this attitude our lifestyle. For he says the kingdom of heaven is the heritage or possession of the poor in spirit.

The Lord does not have any problem with making us great to any level in life. But he does have a problem with our being high-minded and Idolising the greatness or possessions.

I pray the Lord make this attitude of poverty in spirit a part of your new nature in Jesus Name!

Remain Blessed!

Emeke Odili
What is poor in spirit mean?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#9
What is poor in spirit mean?
Spiritual Poverty would probably be a better way of putting.

Knowing that you can't perform the Spiritual because you are carnal. You need Help.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#10
are we poor in spirit when we are repentant?
or ((as Lot is described)) vexed in spirit by the evils we see all around us in the world?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#11
are we poor in spirit when we are repentant?
or ((as Lot is described)) vexed in spirit by the evils we see all around us in the world?
We are vexed in Spirit and then, because we know our Spiritual Poverty, we go to the Lord Jesus Christ for His Help.

You have to know you can't do it in order to ask for Help.

If you think "I've got this" why would you go anywhere for help?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#12
We are vexed in Spirit and then, because we know our Spiritual Poverty, we go to the Lord Jesus Christ for His Help.

You have to know you can't do it in order to ask for Help.

If you think "I've got this" why would you go anywhere for help?
as in blessed are those who hunger for righteousness for they will be filled?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#13
“Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” – Matthew 5:3

All through scriptures, it is very evident that God delights in the prosperity and greatness of his children. As a matter of fact, the scripture tells us that the Lord has bequeathed all his creation to his children—The Church.

He has willed his ministers, the world, death, life, present things and things to come to us believers (1Corinthians 3:22). And I have expounded this fact in my article “All Are Yours”.

All through scriptures, it is evident that the majority of the people that walked with God were made great in all ramifications. Including the chosen nation—Israel. The Lord says we shall be the head and not the tail. He says we shall be above only, and not beneath…

Then again we are told in scriptures that the Lord has given us (Christians) all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). Hence every believer in Christ Jesus is prosperous or rich in all ramifications through redemption and divine heritage. Now, with the above point established, we want to understand what Jesus meant when he said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit

What does he mean by being poor in the spirit? It is very important we understand this statement, because many Christians over the ages, have erroneously interpreted the above statement of the Lord to mean material or financial poverty…

But Jesus never implied that in the context of his statement; hence he was specific. He didn’t say, “Blessed are the materially or financially poor”. Rather he says “blessed are the poor in spirit”. Because someone can be materially or financially poor, and yet not be poor in spirit.

Then on the other hand, someone can as well be materially or financially rich but poor in spirit. Such was the likes of Abraham, Job, Isaac, David, etc.

So What Does Poverty in Spirit Mean?

To better understand poverty in spirit we have to consider the biblical examples the Lord spoke against their attitudes with wealth. Firstly, let’s consider the fellow that ran to Jesus to ask him how to inherit eternal life (Mark 10:17-20).

After his conversation with the Lord, the Lord asked him to go sell all he had and give them to the poor, and come, take up the cross and follow him ( Mark 10:21).

When he received that instruction from the Lord, the word of God says he was sad at the saying and went away grieved: for he had great possessions (Mark 10:22). Now the problem of this young man was not the fact that he had great possessions. No, that couldn’t have been the case; if it was, the Lord would have as well been displeased with Abraham, Job, Isaac and Jacob…

The major challenge of this rich fellow, as it is with many today, is hearty attachment to their possessions. How did I know? I knew this by the Lord’s clarifying statement in verse 24 of the same scripture (Mark 10: 24). Here are the exact words of the Lord Jesus; “Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God”.

So the challenge the Lord had with this rich fellow, wasn’t his wealth or great possessions. But rather his trust or hearty attachment to his possessions that hindered him from selling them off, giving them away to the poor and following him as the Lord instructed him.

That said, let’s consider another example. Because a matter must be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

“ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot… Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked”—Revelation 3:14 & 17.

The same issue comes up again in the above scripture as we saw in the first scriptural example. This fellow became lukewarm concerning God and the things of God as a result of material possessions. And the Lord was displeased with him, not because of his possessions but with his material idolatry.

And the Lord was specific about that in his rebuke. He says; “Because thou sayest I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing”. The Lord didn’t say “because you are rich and increased with good and have need of nothing”. So it wasn’t about his possession, but about the statement of his heart.

It was about his material attachment or attitude in the heart.

So from the above two examples, we can rightly define poverty in spirit to mean, a holistic trust in the Lord, and absolute detachment from possessions, position or achievements. Poverty in spirit means giving up on everything you possess to the Lord in your heart…

It means owning everything, yet submitting all to the Lord in your heart (your spirit). Poverty in spirit means, “Not letting your possessions or position get into your heart or your head”.

Poverty of the spirit means not putting anything or the possession of anything or position above God and his instructions in your heart. Thus poverty in spirit is a matter of the heart or spirit. It is not a function of material or financial possessions because like I wrote earlier, one can be financially or materially poor, yet not be poor in spirit.

Key to Poverty in Spirit

The major biblical key for maintaining poverty in the spirit (human spirit), no matter the level of your elevation in life… Is the realisation that we are actually, only receivers, not achievers. We must realise that whatever we own, possess, know; the heights we have attained, the goals we have achieved etc…

Are all given to us by the Lord. We can receive absolutely nothing except it be given us from heaven (John 3:27). When this revelation dawn in our hearts or spirits, and we walk in it on daily basis, our ego will be humbled.

And as such, we won’t have any need to glory in ourselves or be high-minded over anything. But rather, we’ll always give all the glory to God for all things at all times (see 1 Corinthians 4:7). And along the same line, we’ll also render our bodies and possessions as living sacrifice unto God.

This is exactly what poverty in spirit mean. And the Lord will have us make this attitude our lifestyle. For he says the kingdom of heaven is the heritage or possession of the poor in spirit.

The Lord does not have any problem with making us great to any level in life. But he does have a problem with our being high-minded and Idolising the greatness or possessions.

I pray the Lord make this attitude of poverty in spirit a part of your new nature in Jesus Name!

Remain Blessed!

Emeke Odili
Generally I commend you for your effort to explain a confusing subject. You have attempted to ground your position in Scripture, and have included practical implications for your conclusion.

There are, however, several components of your article that are flawed. First, you mention your previous article in which you claim that "ministers" are among that which is ours in Christ, yet you have not adequately responded to criticisms of that article. Second, your use of "ramifications" and "hence" are not consistent with their definitions; a "ramification" is "a complex or unwelcome consequence of an action or event", and "hence" means "as a consequence" or "for this reason" (both from https://en.oxforddictionaries.com). Third, you refer to "the Laodiceans" as "him". The Laodiceans are not a person, but a group of persons making up the church at the city of Laodicea. These are the minor criticisms.

There is a major criticism as well: your conclusion does not follow from your arguments. You begin by asserting that spiritual poverty is not material poverty. You continue by arguing that though believers might be rich, we are not to trust in riches. Then you conclude that "we can rightly define poverty in spirit to mean, a holistic trust in the Lord, and absolute detachment from possessions, position or achievements. Poverty in spirit means giving up on everything you possess to the Lord in your heart."

The problem is this: your conclusion does not follow from these scriptures. The verses say nothing about spiritual poverty per se; they only address material wealth. Perhaps a syllogism will help explain, showing how your conclusion is a non sequitur. This is your argument, much simplified:

Premise 1. A is not B.
Premise 2a. The opposite of B ("B-") is acceptable.
Premise 2b. The corruption of B- is not acceptable.
Conclusion: Something is true of A.

The reality is that we haven't learned anything about "A".

Others have addressed whether your conclusion is true. I simply state this: from the arguments provided, your conclusion is not valid.

I would encourage you to sharpen your understanding of logical arguments, and of the errors that undermine your effectiveness.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#14
Spiritual Poverty would probably be a better way of putting.

Knowing that you can't perform the Spiritual because you are carnal. You need Help.
Thanks, grandpa, all can't perform the spiritual, but not all aware.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#15
spiritual bankruptcy before God.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#16
To increase the bank account invest in faith.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#18
It is the denial of self. It means you recognize that you are wretched, vile, and vanity; you understand you can't do anything without Jesus.
Thanks brother. All Christian understand how we are helpless without Jesus. Problem can come anytime some time solution is only Jesus. Last month one of the church member died.

It happen quick, a week before she die, she look ok, she fell something wrong, went to doctor, and diagnosed with cancer, about a week after diagnose she pass away.
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
355
92
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#19
Generally I commend you for your effort to explain a confusing subject. You have attempted to ground your position in Scripture, and have included practical implications for your conclusion.

There are, however, several components of your article that are flawed. First, you mention your previous article in which you claim that "ministers" are among that which is ours in Christ, yet you have not adequately responded to criticisms of that article. Second, your use of "ramifications" and "hence" are not consistent with their definitions; a "ramification" is "a complex or unwelcome consequence of an action or event", and "hence" means "as a consequence" or "for this reason" (both from https://en.oxforddictionaries.com). Third, you refer to "the Laodiceans" as "him". The Laodiceans are not a person, but a group of persons making up the church at the city of Laodicea. These are the minor criticisms.

There is a major criticism as well: your conclusion does not follow from your arguments. You begin by asserting that spiritual poverty is not material poverty. You continue by arguing that though believers might be rich, we are not to trust in riches. Then you conclude that "we can rightly define poverty in spirit to mean, a holistic trust in the Lord, and absolute detachment from possessions, position or achievements. Poverty in spirit means giving up on everything you possess to the Lord in your heart."

The problem is this: your conclusion does not follow from these scriptures. The verses say nothing about spiritual poverty per se; they only address material wealth. Perhaps a syllogism will help explain, showing how your conclusion is a non sequitur. This is your argument, much simplified:

Premise 1. A is not B.
Premise 2a. The opposite of B ("B-") is acceptable.
Premise 2b. The corruption of B- is not acceptable.
Conclusion: Something is true of A.

The reality is that we haven't learned anything about "A".

Others have addressed whether your conclusion is true. I simply state this: from the arguments provided, your conclusion is not valid.

I would encourage you to sharpen your understanding of logical arguments, and of the errors that undermine your effectiveness.
Firstly,

Dino, I have to say I am impressed at your passion for grammatical accuracy. At least attention should be paid to grammatical usage for clarity.

Then from your criticism, I see you do have some proficiency in philosophy and logic.

But however, approaching the scriptures from a philosophical vantage point is not actually the right path to toe in scriptural interpretation. The scriptures are spiritual and as such our exegesis should come from a spiritual vantage point.

So I want to crave your indulgence, that as we discuss scriptures here, let's try as much as possible to put aside academic prowess and discuss the scriptures for exactly what it says in context...

For starters you interpret the Laodiceans to be 'a group'. I wanted to know how you harmonise your conclusion with the keyword 'I' in the statement in the verse under discuss. I mean "I am rich'.

Does 'I' refer to a group or an individual?

Then secondly, in the opening text, the Lord specifies the poverty he meant with the words 'poor in spirit'. How does poverty in the spirit translate to 'material wealth' according to your exegesis?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#20
Firstly,

Dino, I have to say I am impressed at your passion for grammatical accuracy. At least attention should be paid to grammatical usage for clarity.

Then from your criticism, I see you do have some proficiency in philosophy and logic.

But however, approaching the scriptures from a philosophical vantage point is not actually the right path to toe in scriptural interpretation. The scriptures are spiritual and as such our exegesis should come from a spiritual vantage point.

So I want to crave your indulgence, that as we discuss scriptures here, let's try as much as possible to put aside academic prowess and discuss the scriptures for exactly what it says in context...

For starters you interpret the Laodiceans to be 'a group'. I wanted to know how you harmonise your conclusion with the keyword 'I' in the statement in the verse under discuss. I mean "I am rich'.

Does 'I' refer to a group or an individual?

Then secondly, in the opening text, the Lord specifies the poverty he meant with the words 'poor in spirit'. How does poverty in the spirit translate to 'material wealth' according to your exegesis?
Hi Emekrus,
When it comes to interpreting Scripture and expounding on it to teach, I am indeed a stickler for grammatical accuracy, so I appreciate your comment on that issue. While I can go overboard at times, I don't think this is one of those.

Unfortunately I can't say I appreciate your comments on the rest of my post, because it appears that you have essentially brushed them aside as irrelevant. Regarding the Laodiceans, it is clear from the context that it is a group of people, not a person. Your argument regarding the "I" statement is weak. I think you're smarter than that.

Please consider this; a logically invalid argument is useless for teaching people the truth of Scripture. You might convince a few people who don't carefully think through your argument, but you will turn off those who do, because they will see your fancy but flawed arguments as deceptive. God's word is worth the effort to interpret and present it carefully.

Let me be perfectly clear: you will not get my "indulgence" when interpreting Scripture! Frankly, I'm disappointed that you even suggest it. I will not park my brain to read your articles. If your argument doesn't stand up to examination, it isn't worth the time to read it! Just because you are discussing the word of God, doesn't mean you should assume that your exegesis is any good. That's asking far too much of your audience, especially if you aren't willing to admit it when you are wrong. All manner of false teaching is embraced by the Church because so many Christians are unable or unwilling to subject their teachers to critical thought. So instead of asking me to be dull, how about you step up and get sharp. :)