Predestination or free wiil.

Sodom and Gomorrah was not God's judgment on "wicked (non elect)"???

According to Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

Read Acts 12 and see what happened to Herod (vs 23 - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost).

God judges the wicked in their lifetime on earth and they reap consequences for their behavior in rejecting God.

Lol. So this is your argument? What happen to we will always do what God chose us to do we have no free will.

Jonah was rejecting God he refused to do what God said, God had to lead him down the path to repent and do what God said.

This happened to me, it is how I cam to Gods truth, God led me all the way. And put roadblocks in my way when I was trying to do it other ways.

Thats right though, You were so secial.God just chose you and FORCED you to believe.

yeah, whatever

She is not preaching savation by works, You would be best suited to stop slandering people. And start to understand what they are saying.

Any time that there is a requirement for man to do to have eternal life, then it is a work depending on man's action. Eph 2:5 says when the natural man is regenerated he is still spiritually dead in his sins and cannot respond, such as, accept, repent, confess, believe, these are all spiritually discerned responses. But you go ahead and slander me as you have been and I will not get mad and retaliate.

You have stated that I have falsely accused you, then you turn around and falsely accuse me. I have never told you that God did not give man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, in fact, I have posted it on several of my posts. I could go back and pull up some of your posts that say slanderous things about me, but I wont.

Hello RDK,

I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:

Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.

So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.

I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.

On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.

So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.

Any time that there is a requirement for man to do to have eternal life, then it is a work depending on man's action. Eph 2:5 says when the natural man is regenerated he is still spiritually dead in his sins and cannot respond, such as, accept, repent, confess, believe, these are all spiritually discerned responses. But you go ahead and slander me as you have been and I will not get mad and retaliate.

My thoughts exactly. Allowing Scripture to speak for itself. When did God know you? Before or after salvation?

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Keep it up.

I will go by what the bible says

He chose ME before the foundaion of the world. To be holy and blameless.

He knew me, and then he predestined me to be conformed to the image of God

He knew me, and because he knew me he predestined me, and because he predestined me, he chose me, and because he chose me, he justified me, and because he justified me he WILL glorify me

He predestined me to be adopted as his child

I have obtained an inheritance having been predestined.

You go by whatever you think it says, I will stick wiht the word.

Ps. Knowing OF ME, (knowing who I am and what I would do in the future which is the cause of my predestination or chosing) and knowing me personally (after I am saved( are two different things, But nice try.

I merely pointed out that the word "of" was added to the verse by the KJV translators, and some versions translate the words pisteōs Christou Iēsou in Gal 2:16 as "faith in Jesus Christ" as opposed to "faith of Jesus Christ" as shown in the KJV.

That you conclude my clarification of what is written in the Greek to mean I "want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works" is nothing but blustering on your part because you are unable to invalidate the fact that the word "of" was added to the text.

Rather than address the point that the word "of" was added to the text, you turn to ad hominem attack.

What's up with that???

Seriously? Wow thats weird. I wish some calvinist could confirm this.

Because of God's foreknowledge (Ps 53:2-3), The three in one Godhead made a covenant agreement to elect, before the foundation of the world, and make secure, by the sacrifice of his Son, a people that would praise and honor him (Eph 1). All mankind, including his elect people, are born into this world, by natural birth, as depraved because of Adam's sin (Eph 2). Sometime between their natural birth and their natural death God will regenerate his elect. In the process of regeneration God will quicken them, even when they were dead in sins, together with Christ and give them a new heart along with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.(Eph 2:4-5).

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (referring to those in Christ)with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According (referring back to the spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ) as he hath chosen us in him (Calvinists focus on the us, while the context focuses on in him, in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we (those in Christ) should be holy and without blame before him in love: (God's choosing was not us, but the method in Christ in which he would bestow spiritual blessings in the heavenly places)
5 Having predestinated us (those in Christ) unto the adoption (future glory of the redemption of the body, Romans 8:23) of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved (in Christ is the context of this entire passage).
7 In whom (in Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (in Christ):
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom (in Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (those in Christ) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we (those in Christ) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ (to be in Christ you've got to first trust in Christ).
13 In whom (in Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In order to be in Christ, you've got to hear the gospel, trust the gospel, and then you are sealed by the Holy Spirit that guarantees the future redemption to those in Christ. That's the entire context of this passage. IN CHRIST! Amen! No one is in Christ before the foundation of the world. It's just not there! The spiritual blessings and redemption was placed in Christ! Christ is God's method for man to receive these blessings.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

*God knows those that are His by the seal of the Holy Spirit He has placed within every believer. God does not know you before you believe upon the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you never trust in Jesus you will hear the words, "depart from me...I never knew you."

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God (you are known of God after you trust the gospel of Jesus Christ and God places His seal, the Holy Spirit in you), how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

1. I am not Calvinist
2. You ignore US. It does not matter if (And I agree) the focus is in him, but you ignore us.
3. If you ignore us, the verse means nothing.

But hey, I understand you can believe in predestination as scripturally found, because you would have to admit in eternal security. Because of we are predestined (which we are) we also are eternally secure.

Wonder what that feels like, since I have never experienced it (I guess I am not saved)

One moment I am a sinner, totally unable to understand anything about Jesus even his death on the cross. Or the fact that I am a sinner and deserving of condemnation. I have no desire to have christ, I am his enemy, and the mere thought of recieving him makes me sick as I give him the finger and tell him where to put his gospel.

A second later, it is like a light came on. And all spiritual knowledge is all of a sudden given to me, where I have complete understanding, I suddenly want to recieve christ, I close my fist and stop giving God the finger and telling him where he can put his gift, and ask him to give that gift to me. I get on my knees and I ask him to come into my life (even though he already did)

Yeah, that makes total sense.

That is pretty harsh, but if you want to interpret the scriptures to give man glory in taking a part in his eternal destination instead of giving God all of the credit, that is your choice. Yes, contrary to what you think of me, I do believe that God gave man the freedom to choose how man wants to live his life here on earth. That is why man has made such a mess of things.

I don't ignore the "us", it's just not the context of the passage as Calvinists believe. The "us" are those who would be found in Christ after they hear the gospel and believe the gospel, not anytime before.

I absolutely beyond a doubt believe in eternal security. I've trusted in Christ. God placed His seal upon my soul, sealing my future redemption. It's not about my obedience, but my one time trust in Jesus' shed blood alone for the forgiveness of my sins. Amen!

It's not about my obedience, but my one time trust in Jesus' shed blood alone for the forgiveness of my sins. Amen!

This is the calvinist moving of goalposts I talked about earlier:

They claim misrepresentation and move the goalposts, case in point. Forestgreen said "I have never told you that God did not give man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth"
If forestgreen you are a calvinist you dont believe in free will. Some say they do, but dont, they claim man freely sins and he can only desire to sin because we are only free to choose according to our NATURE (sin nature in this case). So by saying this, now whatever eternally-grateful comes back with, you can reply :"Man can choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, and everyone just wants to live in sin because they are sinners unregenerate"

Am i right? Or are you not a calvinist at all. If thats the case i apologize already, if not, im stickin to my statement

Oy vey! No obedience? Where do I sign up for this salvation package?

Last time I checked the bible teaches no obedience equals no salvation. No need to get into whether its you obeying or God causing you to obey or influencing you to obey or sanctifying you, doesnt matter. No matter how you slice and dice it, the Bible teaches obedience is required.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

And on and on it goes. Hundreds of passages!