Not By Works

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It is called a catch 22......tell the truth/be honest and maybe get banned or lie and go against your working for dogma and by a false belief lose salvation....

It's actually you who misses the whole point of this scripture. Although these many people in Matthew 7:22 were not devoid of works of any kind, they were still claiming to have accomplished some incredible signs, wonders and wonderful works. Reminds me of Benny Hinn. The problem was, their confidence was in these works and not in Christ alone for salvation (sound familiar?) which demonstrates these works were not produced out of authentic faith. Jesus NEVER knew them (John 17:3) which means they were NEVER saved.

There are false prophets who prophecy in the name of Jesus and even make false prophecies and also, Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his own evil agenda. False teachers and false prophets have long demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan, including the power to control the demonic realm. The enemy can easily use this deception to win an audience for his claims.

Also, in Matthew 10:1, we also see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

Do you attend church? In Hebrews 10:24-25, we read - And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. I attend church weekly and I also attend a weekly small group Bible study. I love to fellowship with other believers.

What about you?

There is nothing wrong with feeding and clothing the poor or donating to missions or counceling folks on drug use and on marriage, helping the addicted etc.. and doing this in Christ's name. These are all good works and are fall in line with the second great commandment of loving our neighbor as ourself (Matthew 22:39). Good works glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) and they show that our faith is alive (James 2:14-20).

Doing good works is following God's path. Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. From the mindset of believing that salvation is obtained by works as an unregenerate Roman Catholic several years ago, I saw it as what these many people accomplished in Matthew 7:22 as not good enough and somehow I had to top that if I expected to be saved. In your case, you see it as they were not doing all the right works on God's path and you confidently (and self righteously) seem to believe that you qualify for heaven under those terms. Either way it's salvation by works. Difference in style, but same in substance.

I find my Sabbath rest in Christ and not by following the law of Moses. In Hebrews 4:9, we read - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. Here the Sabbath rest is the perpetual rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with Jesus Christ, in contrast to keeping the weekly seventh day Sabbath under the law. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Typical straw man argument. His salvation plan is found in the gospel, which is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. *Also see (Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9).

I have chosen Christ. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus and not through honoring feasts or observing the law. Christianity is about a love relationship with Jesus Christ and is not just another religion. It sounds to me like you are mixed up in the Hebrew Roots movement and are having a difficult time making the transition from the old covenant into the new covenant.

Is this from the old covenant or new covenant? What do YOU believe it means to "keep" His commandments in the old covenant and in the new covenant?

I have actually had Roman Catholics quote these verses to me and accuse me of being in rebellion because I no longer attend the Roman Catholic church and embrace their false gospel. So here you are accusing me of being in rebellion because I don't mix the old covenant with the new covenant and embrace a perverted gospel of salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

Unbelievers will ALL be characterized as "ye that work iniquity." These were NOT genuine believers and that is the heart of the issue that you continue to miss! A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Apart from the blood of Christ, everything that unbelievers do is stained with sin.

As we read in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as you suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing things that also the righteous would do, yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. *Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

You are really mixed up and truly deceived.

Only genuine believers have authentic good works produced "out of" faith. I have gone to the Word of God and my conscience is clear about whether or not my works are wrought in God.

I find your (religious man) arguments to be ironic. You are not fooling any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat, but what you have to say may tickle the ears of SDA's, those in the Hebrew Roots movement and misguided teachers of the law in general. Until the veil is lifted, there will just be no getting through to you.

Here you go twisting the scriptures again and teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Seeking salvation by works is not giving Christ credit for the works. It's giving YOURSELF credit for them. It's also not the will of God.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people in Matthew 7:22 lived in iniquity because they were UNBELIEVERS. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. ALL who stand before God at the judgment who are NOT clothed in the righteousness of God (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) will be seen in the eyes of God as workers of iniquity and all their righteousness will be filthy rags! Their sin remains.

So let me make sure I got this straight. Are you labeling these many people in Matthew 7:22 as "workers of iniquity" solely based on your belief that these many people "transgressed the Commandments of God" (did all the wrong works/did not obey the right Commandments)? Are you throwing the rest of us (who trust in Christ alone for salvation and do not agree with you) into the same boat with these many people in Matthew 7:22, yet confidently and self righteously, claim salvation for yourself "based on the merits of properly obeying all the right Commandments?"

ARE YOU BLIND!

You keep say that we MUST obey, which puts it in the REALM of a LAW.

I SAY that JESUS SAID "IF YOU LOVE ME, you WILL obey." THAT PUTS IT IN THE REALM OF A WILLING, LOVING ACTION, IN RESPONSE TO HIS LOVE FOR US."

There is NO choice between MUST OBEY, and NOT TO OBEY, THEY ARE BOTH FALSE DOCTRINES.

THE ONLY FORM of OBEDIENCE that GOD RESPECTS, IS WHEN IT IS PURELY BECAUSE YOU SINCERELY LOVE HIM AND WANT TO SHOW THAT LOVE FOR HIM. It has NOTHING to do with what goes on between you ears. GENUINE FAITH is what is going on in your HEART (Human Spirit). When you have been genuinely Born Again, your human spirit thinks, has GOD's LOVE inside of IT and LOVES HIM BACK, Rom. 5:5, and it wills to do what pleases GOD. THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE BORN AGAIN HUMAN SPIRIT. At first the Will of the Carnal Mind which is at WAR with the SPIRITUAL MIND, more often than not wins out. AS YOU SPIRITUALLY MATURE FEEDING ON THE WORD, it will become more and more DOMINANT.

Because of GOD's LOVE being poured into your HEART, your Eternal LIVING Human Spirit will Dominate the Carnal Mind, and will by NATURE want to LOVE HIM.

1 John 5:3 (ESV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Why does it say "his commandments are not burdensome" ? ? ?

BECAUSE IT IS THE NATURE OF THE BORN AGAIN HUMAN SPIRIT TO WANT TO DO HIS WILL TO SHOW HIM LOVE.

If all of this seems like FOOLISHNESS to YOU, there is a reason:

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (NIV)
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

dan, you should know by now studyman has no idea what he is saying. other than " salvation by keeping the law good ", salvation by faith alone bad ".

see the " God not need us to feed the poor " for verification .

They did all their "works" in Christ's name, they were just not the "works" God foreordained for His people to walk in. they were the "righteous" works of man.

The key point is they "THOUGHT" they were saved just like Eve, they told everyone they were saved, they gave the Christ all the credit for all their deeds. This is why the Christ said it in the first place. "Many will say to me in that day" (Jesus, don't you know who we are? Don't you know all the great TV shows we did to spread all our wonderful works, all in your name. Don't you see the handsome man we created and placed your name on?

The Christ doesn't want all your religious works, He wants your respect and obedience. I can understand how these scriptures sting you.

Just more deflection. The Christ rejected them because they claimed to be His children, but they refused to do as He said. He rejected the Mainstream Preachers of His time for the same thing. Same religion, different century.

Going to a church that "transgresses the Commandments of God by their man made religious traditions" is not going to save me. And the Christ said I should "Come out of her" so given I am not my own, and He directs my footsteps, I stay away from the religious franchises you espouse. We have 15 people in the church I attend weekly, not that this would matter to you anyway. You must deflect from the scriptures I post and try to stay away from the valid questions and points the scriptures make regarding your preaching. It's old hat, but good for me as it keeps me in remembrance of why I need to "put on" the whole armor of God.

All your "wonderful works" that you brag about here will not save you if you are rejecting God's Commandments. That is the whole purpose of Matthew 7:22,23, to begin with. "DEpart from Me, you who "work iniquity".

But you are simply telling another falsehood in defense of your man made religion. The Christ didn't say these were rejected because they weren't "good enough" as you falsely preach. He didn't know them because they had "Works" like you, but they were not the "Works of God". They, like you, were simply convinced, as was Eve, that they are already immortal, already saved and that God's instructions make you blind. It's literally the oldest deception in the World, but still is effective for those more interested in a social club, than in seeking the God of the Bible. What a shock when the are resurrected and see that the Bible was right after all, and all their righteous works meant nothing because they had His Sayings, but didn't believe them. But you can't blame the Christ, He has certainly told you.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



Ya, that's what all those "MANY" Christians were convinced of in Matt. 7. Too bad they refused to accept the Word of God's definition of "iniquity".

Yes, I agree with Paul and I will not let you or the Catholic church judge me in regards to obeying the Word which became Flesh. After all, they are all about HIM.

Like Paul said.

1 Cor. 5:
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Christ offered his life to save you from the evil choices you made in your life. He didn't die so you could create your own religion or continue to make a mockery of His Word as you did before. I don't believe your old covenant, I believe in the one created by the Word which became Flesh. I have showed you this many times but you can't see it. God tells us why you can't see it in the Law and Prophets, but you don't believe what is written therein. That is a choice you make, it's not God's Fault.

You just condemned me because I didn't go to some religious franchise you approve of. You are so similar to the Catholic church it's funny, but you are oblivious to it.



Wow, you, once again in defence of your religious traditions completely reject and omit the most important part of these scriptures.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man.

Every part of your religion teaches exactly the opposite of this. Anyone who "Believes" this is labeled a "lawyer" "Pharisee" "fallen from Grace"

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man,

I swear, you can't make this stuff up. The more you preach, the more Christ's Word's come true.

Finally, you finally preach something that is absolutely True. Yes, these folks rejected God's instruction and created their own. They reject the Christ's definition of "Good" "Holy" "Righteous" and had created their own definition of these things. They didn't know the Christ, because they really didn't "BELIEVE" in Him, not the things He said. And this is explained perfectly by the Christ Himself.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

This is why Abraham knew the Christ when He came to him. This is why Zechariahs knew the Christ when He came and the Mainstream Preachers of His time did not. This is exactly why those in Matt. 7, didn't know the Christ, and why the Christ didn't know Him. It's in your Bible, all you have to do is "Believe".

It's not about you or your thoughts or your conscience. Those in Matt. 7 were just as convinced as you and the Catholic church that they are already immortal, already saved. And the Word's the Christ gives us to protect us, you refuse to accept. It's sad to watch and maddening. Nevertheless, God Word remains true whether you "believe " or not.

2 Tim.15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (That you are already immortal, already saved,) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

They were only touting works. We are not saved by works as all Christians know. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. They never mentioned grace!!

So in your religion It's not the Will of God for me to listen to Him and do as He says. You do realize that Satan convinced Eve of that EXACT same thing don't you.

But Zechariahs was a believer wasn't he. And Simeon, and Anna, and Abraham also knew the Christ when He came to him. I agree that your religious works, all you fancy million dollar churches, all your High Days you place the Christ's name on. all those handsome images of God in the likeness of man you give to the world, they truly look righteous to the world. But they are filthy rags.

But God's Commandments are not filthy rags, I don't care what you and the Pope preach. God's Sabbath is not a Filthy Rag, I don't care what you preach.

I did it my way once, and by the Grace of God I have been given another chance to SERVE HIM, HIM Dan, not some religious franchise which transgresses the Commandments of God by their own self righteous traditions.

The Christ labeled them Dan. Iniquity is an easy word to look up and understand. You have deemed yourself a preacher, you should know what "iniquity" means. You have placed the Catholic church in this place and are confidently and self righteously claiming you are already immortal based on a religion which transgresses the Commandments of God by their own religious traditions, many of which actually come from the Catholic church.

Why are you projecting your self righteousness on others.

I don't want to fight, rather, have honest discussions about God's Words, all of them, including the warnings about religions and religious men.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one (Jew or Gentile) that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

They may have externally done them in Christ's name (just like Benny Hinn and other false teachers) yet Christ NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved/not genuine believers. Allow that to sink in. So anyone who has ever prophesied in the Bible or cast out demons etc.. was not doing the "works" that God foreordained for His people to walk in? In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Works of God or works of man?

The key point is they "THOUGHT" they were saved based on their works. Trusting in their so called wonderful works for salvation is NOT giving Christ credit for all their deeds. It's giving themselves credit. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost no matter how many so called wonderful works that we set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain eternal life.

None of these scriptures sting me. You really sound full of yourself.

No deflection at all. You keep focusing on the effect but fail to see the root cause of the problem. UNBELIEF. You can condemn Mainstream Preachers all you like, but SDA's/Hebrew Roots/misguided teachers of the law are no better. Same judaizing religion, different century.

Sounds like a cult to me. False religion kills and ONLY Jesus saves.

I don't brag about my works. I brag about CHRIST. Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. I do not reject God's Commandments. I reject your perverted gospel of salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

Christianity is not a man made religion. I don't falsely preach that Christ did not save these many people in Matthew 7:22 because they were not "good enough." I told you that prior to my conversion, while still attended the Roman Catholic church several years ago, that's how I saw it then, but as a believer now, I don't see it that way. Your interpretation falls more in line with not "good enough" - did not obey all the right commandments to obtain eternal life - works salvation.

What works like me? I have not done those works in Matthew 7:22 and my motivation for doing good works that pertain to living God and loving my neighbor as myself is LOVE, not pride and expectation. You remind me of the Jews in John 6:28 who asked Jesus, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” (works salvation) In verse 29, we read - Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

God's instructions do not make me blind. Mixing law and grace keeps you blind. The god of this world had blinded the minds of those who DON'T BELIEVE the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). Believers have already been saved (from the PENALTY of sin) through faith (Romans 5:1 - justification). Yet believers have not yet been saved (from the PRESENCE of sin - glorification).

It sounds to me like you are bitter and maybe felt like you never fit in with mainstream churches, so you withdrew to your house church with 15 angry cultish people.

These were NOT many "Christians" in Matthew 7:22. You need to get that straight! Jesus NEVER KNEW THEM. Too bad they did not do the will of God (John 6:40) and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Then they would have been born again, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and became new creations in Christ (Acts 10:43-45; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13; 2 Corinthians 5:17).

I agree with Paul and it's you who is judging me in regards to the Sabbath day. Turning keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for the Church under the new covenant is not obeying the Lord. You are really mixed up and bitter.

In the analogy, leaven represents sin, and Paul says that just a little leaven is sufficient to leaven the whole lump of dough. In contrast to the OT Passover feast celebrated annually, believers continuously celebrate the feast of the new Passover -- Jesus Christ. As the Jews in the OT celebrated Passover with unleavened bread, believers celebrate their continual Passover with unleavened lives.

Hey Y'all

Come over and vote!

Enough with the Eve straw man argument. There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

What about these people being believers? I do not attend a fancy multi-million dollar mega church, but that is not to say that there are no believers in various mega churches across the country that you condemn. You continue to sound bitter and angry.

I did not call the Sabbath a filthy rag and I also do not turn it into an idol, like you do. My Sabbath rest is in Christ (Hebrews 4:9), in contrast to keeping the weekly Sabbath for Israel under the law (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31).

So perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is your solution to avoid going to church? You seem to have more faith in the Commandments to save you than you do in Jesus Christ to save you. Have you read 2 Corinthians 3:6-9?

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT. You sound brain washed.

My self righteousness? I'm not the one who is promoting salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." I promote Christ's righteousness. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, (sound familiar?) but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Don't forget warnings about perverting the gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Other translations say, "turn away from evil/abstain from wickedness/depart from unrighteousness." What happens to us when we become a believers? Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

In 1 John 3:9-10, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Does "practice righteousness and not sin" and "loves his brother" sound like "work iniquity" to you?

We used to hear a lot of those same arguments from LGF that culminated in -- salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

I have a Special Request, WHEN YOU HAVE TIME. It may be hard to find an angel, Male, in full battle gear, or at least a large sword, with this portion of scripture on it.



The angel that I am looking for should look something like the first one this page, but that is a copyrighted image:

So does your clipart Collection has such an angel.

This Gustov Dore drawing, may work as a background. His artwork is from the from the early to mid 1800's.
If it is you do not have one, maybe this one could work. Absolutely NO HURRY, when you got time.

I've got 113 points now!

Can I finally be an Overlord?

And HE SAYS: "I am that I am, tell them I am sent you,"
His is not the I was, I am, and I will be.
NOW HOW LONG IS ENTERNITY ? ? ?
Or is it TIMELESS ? ? ?
How can we who are finite beings, traveling thru time as we KNOW IT,
fully understand an Infinite Being in ETERNITY ? ? ?

those you believe that salvation is losable have ignored the promise "I will neither leave you nor forsake you"

imagine what the idea that "salvation is losable" can lead to, as in turning to idols for "back up" (or back up idols) incase if salvation is lost somehow. (think of the golden calf as idol back in Moses time)

thankfully, the promise of eternal security can protect us from going down that path

faith and encouragement is necessary