Sheep and goats. Separate from, or same as The great white throne judgment?

Let me answer your question by asking a question. Are the clouds clouds of water vapor or are they clouds of witnesses?

(Heb 12:1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

I would also add to


Amo_9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

I'm curious, do you think a literal plowman plowing literal dirt is going to overtake a literal reaper and a literal treader is going to walk on literal grapes and the mountains are going drop sweet wine and the literal hills are going to melt?

Context for clouds is derived from old testament prophetic usage - when Jesus said the council would see him on the clouds of heaven he is speaking of judgment on the apostate nation.

If we look through the old testament judgments by God on a nations we see clouds used:

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
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Failure to take prophetic/apocalyptic language into account is where we end up with mistaken ideas on what the bible is trying to say.

When John in his revelation stated that those that pierced him would "see the clouds" it is because the events that unfold are to do with the judgment of the whore and her city - 1st century Jerusalem:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

No i dont.

Again, literal interpretation does NOT mean we dont allow for metaphors or allegories.

I dont think people are sheep or wheat either......... This is obvious. Bible is to be read in a way that we understand language. Its raining cats and dogs means its pouring rain heavily. No doubt.
Take out the trash, bob. Means: take out the trash, bob.

Eze_6:3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.

Are the literal mountains of Israel going to hear the words

I would agree with that also but clouds are not limited to literal clouds and judgement. Clouds are also used to represent witnesses too.

No, it's the "rulers" and or the wealthy described as mountains, the people as hills, rivers and valleys.

Same kind of language used in other places such as Isaiah, which was quoted in relationship to John the B.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:



i would agree, context is key

Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millenium.

I base this opinion on Matthew 25:31 which says that when Jesus comes in glory with angels. Therefore I believe it cannot be the great white throne, because where would Jesus be "coming from" with the angels if He is already on the earth during the millennium?

The argument that does favor opposing view to mine, that it indeed IS the Great white throne judgment is the last verse in the chapter. 46. Which states that the result is ETERNAL LIFE for the sheep, not living in the flesh in a millennium. Likewise for the goats its eternal damnation.

The Parable of the Tares

Matthew 13: 40-42, "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

This is the Lake of Fire which happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. People are not cast into the "furnace of fire/lake of fire" until after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. The 1,000 years of Rev 20 is a symbolic number for this current age.
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This is not necessarily talking about the lake of fire, it could be, but it could talking about the burning of the city in AD 70.

I think that is exactly what the parable is referring to - and we have other parables stating who is involved:

Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Luke 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

Luke 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

You are assuming that there is a millennium where Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. What if there is no millennium? Then he would be coming back with His holy angels to judge people at the Great White Throne judgment. Let me give a couple examples from Scripture that I believe prove that there is no millennium. Please pay special attention to the bold parts.

The Parable of the Tares

Matthew 13: 40-42, "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

This is the Lake of Fire which happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. People are not cast into the "furnace of fire/lake of fire" until after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. The 1,000 years of Rev 20 is a symbolic number for this current age.

The Parable of the Dragnet

Matthew 13: 47-50, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire."

The angels are casting them into the "lake of fire" at the "end of the age". Jesus is telling us specifically that the age ends when He returns and that is when people are cast into the "furnace of fire". Unsaved people are not cast into the lake of fire until after the 1,000 years is completed as Rev 20 tells us.



This argument is correct and when you look at the parable of the tares and dragnet it makes it more clear.

I would add to this that when Christ returned at his resurrection he was accompanied by the Old Testament saints that were raised along with him, would it not be correct to say that Jesus returned with a cloud of witnesses?

I understand, believe it or not. Ive been going back and forth on eschatology as can be seen in my posts here.

However, Revelation 20 is just TOO MUCH in the amil view. Satan is clearly not bound, nations ARE being deceived, apostasy is upon us no doubt, saints are NOT reigning, world lies in wickedness, and im not too fancy on spiritualizing the gog and magog war as the apostasy and persecution of the church either.

That is exactly what the Bible says. And when the second coming of Christ occurs, there will be CLOUDS OF SAINTS AND ANGELS surrounding Him.

Because they all will be dressed in white, and also radiating light, they will appear as shining clouds from a great distance. And every eye on earth will witness this amazing phenomenon, and the inhabitants of the earth will weep, and wail, and mourn because their JUDGMENT draweth nigh.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they alsowhich pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

I've tried to explains those things to you in previous posts. If you don't see it, you don't see it. That makes me sad and means I should have done a better job explaining perhaps.

In the end, you have to go with what you think the Scripture is teaching. That's all we can do.

This is not necessarily talking about the lake of fire, it could be, but it could talking about the burning of the city in AD 70.

Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

I think you are eisegeting instead of reading the text for what it says. Equating the "burning of the city" with unbelievers being "cast into the furnace of fire" is ridiculous.

I've tried to explains those things to you in previous posts. If you don't see it, you don't see it. That makes me sad and means I should have done a better job explaining perhaps.

In the end, you have to go with what you think the Scripture is teaching. That's all we can do.

I think you are eisegeting instead of reading the text for what it says. Equating the "burning of the city" with unbelievers being "cast into the furnace of fire" is ridiculous.



I will say it again. It is ridiculous to say that the "burning of the city" is the same as casting the tares at the end of the age into "the furnace of fire".