Not By Works

Faith is not defined as works. What works-salvationists do is basically take BOTH faith AND works, wrap them up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. As I mentioned before about the Roman Catholic who I was in a discussion with about faith and he said:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

That is a good example above of a works-salvationist teaching that works are inherent in faith. In other words, faith "is" in essence, these works. Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved through faith "infused with works."

Amen, Faith causes work (we work because we trust)

But work has nothing to do with faith.

Oh, an no one but Christ ever living had perfect faith. Even Paul did not have Perffect faith. I find it amazing that the people who walked with Christ could not find perfect faith (even peter had to be scolded by Paul) yet people today who never seen Christ think they can..

It's interesting that he said:

Yet he is looking to a new version for an old truth. What about the old version?

As always, when you use these things to convince yourself your right, but the truth you are professing is not truth, You end up contradicting yourself. Happens every time

It is when we should see either a repentance heart as they see their flaw. or we see a hardened heart as they can not see their flaw.

Work is the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically "defined" faith "as" obedience/works.

The light finally came on when I placed my faith (belief, trust, confidence, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Then I finally understood the difference!

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19




Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.


The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.


Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

...So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

But isn't this what James 2:14 does? I believe it does, and stamps the entire package as true faith. The "faith" James rebukes, and asks "can that faith save him?" has no works as evidence, therefore it is not genuine.

Faith and works are two sides of one coin. I'd have to say works are inherent in faith. I hope you understand my point andbelieve it is entirely biblical.

I would agree with this guy to a certain extent because faith has works sans his Catholic ideology of "works." Here is what he is doing, he is decrying simple "believe-ism" as do I. So does James.

We all know we are justified by faith; Romans 5. Faith is evidence of conversion, faith justifies us, faith is not mere believe-ism, it has evidence of being genuine by works. Some are so "We aren't saved by works!!!!" oriented, any mention of works and they are saying "You're preaching a works Gospel!"

There are many people not in church that we know of, who decry works, evidence, going to church and much more who believe they are saved because they gave mental assent to facts and have no evidence of conversion. They have been taught to do these things, to decry works and evidence of conversion. We are in prayer now for friends who are in this predicament, if they do not return to Christ they were never his; 1 John 2:19.

We had an errant pastor threaten our family because in a SS class lead by another we were discussing evidence of conversion. He screamed at me and others telling us we were preaching a works gospel, and had a woman call the police on us. Many stood with us and against this preacher, nevertheless we left as did others. He is the epitome of this problem. He is in fact preaching a truncated Gospel.

Here is the needed distinction: works are in no way salvific. Your Catholic friend is correct in his stance against mere believe-ism, but Catholicism is wrong concerning true faith because it has created its own faith contrary to Scripture, adding to the word of God.

Amen! Speaking of repentance unto salvation, which precedes faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21) I've seen works-salvationists confuse the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) with the essence of repentance - "to think differently or afterwards reconsider; change of mind." I've also seen works-salvationists reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation and basically define repentance as "moral self reformation." I've also seen those who teach sinless perfection imply that if you are not living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life (100% of the time) then you did not truly repent.

Paul - For by grace we have been saved through faith, not of works. Lest anyone should be puffed up. If abraham was saved by work, he would have something to boast of. - Not by works of righteousness (good deeds, obedience to Gods commands) which we have done, BUT BY GODS MERCY, HE SAVED US, by the washing and renewa of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus - For God so loved the world. He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him will NEVER DIE, but LIBE FOREVER. He who believes is not condemned (no works mentioned) Seek for the food which endures to eternal life, which I will give you, Whoever eats and drinks will NEVER DIE, NEVER HUNGER OR NEVER THIRST. Will LIVE FOREVER. Has passed from DEATH TO LIFE, will BE RAISED BY HIM, and will NEVER BE LOST.

There are so many more who make these same claims of bases of we are saved solely by the means of Grace. Not because of works. Namely, because if works COULD SAVE US, We would not need christ (he died in vein, because he di dnot have to)

obedience is a result of salvation, not a cause. salvation is a gift. you and the others who deny this simply refuse to accept that Paul spoke truth when he said this, He did talk directly to Jesus. you haven't.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine

I believe that repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin - "repent -- change of mind -- new direction of that change of mind -- faith in Christ for salvation. Works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. To say that works are inherent in faith is to make no distinction between faith and works and basically define faith as works, as that Catholic did.

I also decry simple "believe-sim" if you define that as simply believing "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ "apart" from trust/confidence/reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

It's not wrong to say that works are the evidence of genuine faith. James said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18) Yet that is show, not establish. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Faith involves trust and reliance in Christ for salvation and not mere mental assent belief to facts. In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not have faith in/trust in Christ for salvation. There are people in the world who believe "mental assent" in the existence of Christ and also believe that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" but are not trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation, but instead are trusting in works for salvation. The belief/faith of such people is no better than the belief of demons.

Here is the balance that gets out of balance. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Amen!

It's not wrong to say that faith results in producing evidential works and that works are the fruit of faith, but as soon as someone crosses the line (as Catholicism does) and teaches that faith is defined as works and that works are the essence of faith and we are saved by works, then they are perverting the gospel and adding to the word of God.

You just reiterated what I stated...

Yours is the classic mistake of making evidence of conversion the cause. That equates to a false gospel my friend.

No it does not say that.........it states clearly...

It pleased god by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE

He that BELIEVES on the SON is having everlasting LIFE

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to HIS mercy has he saved us

In the grace we are, having been saved OUT of FAITH, and that NOT of ourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD and not of works lest any man should BOAST

Therefore we conclude that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the works/deeds of the law

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

He that believes on the SON is NOT CONDEMNED

And I could care less how many boards you moderated.....your faith/works combo drivel saves NO ONE.....

OH FOOLISH GALATIANS.....WHO has BEWITCHED you, having begun in the SPIRIT (By faith) are you NOW made perfect by the flesh (works)

Insert your name in the place of Galatians.....and NO....YOU are the one arguing against plain scripture and flat rejecting context to peddle a pseudo gospel that has no power like a street organ player and a dancing monkey in Calcutta for coin......!!

dcontroversal said:
Blah blah blah Arguemore....none of what you posted = a works based salvation that is gained, maintained, kept, embellished, topped off or finished by works

Faith plus works for = lost and hell to pay

I suggest you open your eyes......start with...

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe <--Bible

Your VERSION -> It pleased God by the foolish of works to save those that work.

Let me ask you this Argueless since you summon Adam and Eve as evidence.

Their obedience pre fall: Was obedience the cause of their good state before God?

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH man..........I will give you a fine example of the blather that comes from one who cannot see, understand and or comprehend context......

Do you have kids? If not, according to your logic and total disregard for context, you are not saved.....

Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control

This is the type of absurdity that comes from you, Arguemore and ALL workers for that disregard context to peddle a salvation that must be gained or maintain by works and or a salvation that can be lost like a dime at the carnival!

Those who peddle a working for salvation that must be maintained or can be lost will be a micro second late and 1 work short when the day comes.......