Calvinism Critiqued

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Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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#81
Sep 8, 2018
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#81
p_rehbein said:
Sure sounds like what I hear from some of the disciples of Calvin............ :)

Seems to me, could be wrong, but Calvin's teachings came before OSAS

Calvin's predestination teachings assure his disciples that they are chosen by God from the beginning to receive eternal life with Him. Where in that is there need for regret for living a sin-filled life in disobedience to God, conviction by the Holy Spirit leading to repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ (God the Son) as Lord and Savior, and having ones sins cleansed by His precious blood? IF, from the beginning, they have been predestined to eternal life, how could it possibly matter how they live their lives?

Still, no one has explained to me why they feel the need to identify themselves as the disciple of a man, rather than as a disciple of Christ. Why identify one's self as a Calvinist, rather than as a Christian? You know it's ok to call yourself a disciple of Christ and believe in predestination, right? :)

Now, I may disagree with your interpretation of Scripture, but you have the God given right to read Scripture and decide for yourselves. It's called Free Will.
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Calvin believed in repentance and faith. And he didnt teach you can just be "elect" and automatically saved.

The PROOF is in the pudding. If you are elect, you will then persevere in faith through God's grace. That is how he taught it. and at the end WHO CARES what Calvin taught. Lets focus on the Scriptures.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#82
Hevosmies said:
Calvin believed in repentance and faith. And he didnt teach you can just be "elect" and automatically saved.

The PROOF is in the pudding. If you are elect, you will then persevere in faith through God's grace. That is how he taught it. and at the end WHO CARES what Calvin taught. Lets focus on the Scriptures.
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Which is EXACTLY what I have been saying...........do not identify one's self as a disciple of Calvin, rather as a disciple of Christ......... It's the Gospel of Christ we should be focusing on, not the teachings of Calvin.

Yet, I am rudely criticized for saying that............... :)

A believer can say they are a Christian who believes in predestination, and that's fine! A believer can also say they are a Christian who believes in free will, and THAT TOO is fine!

One day soon, we will all see clearly as the glass darkly is removed...........
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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#83
#83
p_rehbein said:
Which is EXACTLY what I have been saying...........do not identify one's self as a disciple of Calvin, rather as a disciple of Christ......... It's the Gospel of Christ we should be focusing on, not the teachings of Calvin.

Yet, I am rudely criticized for saying that............... :)

A believer can say they are a Christian who believes in predestination, and that's fine! A believer can also say they are a Christian who believes in free will, and THAT TOO is fine!

One day soon, we will all see clearly as the glass darkly is removed...........
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All this is true.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#84
Sep 4, 2013
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#84
Brother Penn...........one other problem with Calvin that I have is this:

Infant Baptism

The most significant controversy to centre upon the sacrament of baptism has arguably been the debate over whether it is legitimate to baptize infants or not(McGrath 443). In his most renowned work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin takes up this issue endeavouring to prove that infant baptism is a divine institution(Wendel 324). Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8). He reasons this primarily through paralleling circumcision and baptism, asserting that Scripture testifies to the fact that baptism is for the Christians what circumcision was previously for the Jews(Inst.4, 16, 11). This essay will undertake the task of manifesting the coherence, profundity, and thoroughness of Calvin's reasoning, while illuminating the congruence of his arguments with Scripture.

found here:

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ...ism.html/RK=2/RS=BB2U7mryk5h_7Scok9HX88Q6PTU-

I'm not sure any of us believe infant baptism is what the Church should be doing.........now, Dedication Ceremony is different that Baptism........
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#85
Oct 25, 2018
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#85
p_rehbein said:
I beg to differ friend. God foreknows ALL. ALL means ALL, and that means everyone. He foreknew from the beginning who would and who would not choose to love Him and to give their lives to Him. Not because He forced them to, but because they came to believe in Him and chose to. Those that did this, He predestined, meaning He provided the Holy Spirit to them to assure that they would be equipped to deal with whatever tribulations would arise in their lives, and remain faithful to Him.

He gave them the gifts needed to accomplish the purpose He purposed them for from the beginning. Foreknowing is far more powerful than predestination in my opinion my friend.
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You are conflating God's omniscience with His foreknowledge. Foreknowledge in the Greek is προγινώσκω (proginōskō) and its a verb, so God is foreknowing them in an active manner; i.e. electing them.

We see the same word in Romans 11:2 οὐκ ἀπώσατο ὁ θεὸς τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ὃν προέγνω. ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ἐν Ἠλίᾳ τί λέγει ἡ γραφή, ὡς ἐντυγχάνει τῷ θεῷ κατὰ τοῦ Ἰσραήλ;

to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2

1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?(Romans 11:2)

God has not foreknew everybody my friend, because His foreknowledge(not omniscience) is how He chose to save people. God knows all things and everybody via His omniscience, but only His elect does He know via foreknowledge.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#86
Sep 8, 2018
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#86
p_rehbein said:
Which is EXACTLY what I have been saying...........do not identify one's self as a disciple of Calvin, rather as a disciple of Christ......... It's the Gospel of Christ we should be focusing on, not the teachings of Calvin.

Yet, I am rudely criticized for saying that............... :)

A believer can say they are a Christian who believes in predestination, and that's fine! A believer can also say they are a Christian who believes in free will, and THAT TOO is fine!

One day soon, we will all see clearly as the glass darkly is removed...........
Click to expand...
I definately am a Christian who believes in predestination because its a BIBLE word.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#87
Oct 25, 2018
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#87
eternally-gratefull said:
Nope. Because not everyone has done the will of God.

What is Gods will?

That whoever sees and believes has eternal life. (John 6)

God witnessed these events before time began. God is outside of time, sadly to many people think in human terms and miss the message.
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Yet, God did not base His election upon what He saw. Election is unconditional my friend, as He chose His elect based solely upon Himself, not fallen mankind.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#88
Apr 22, 2013
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#88
p_rehbein said:
Brother Penn...........one other problem with Calvin that I have is this:

Infant Baptism

The most significant controversy to centre upon the sacrament of baptism has arguably been the debate over whether it is legitimate to baptize infants or not(McGrath 443). In his most renowned work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin takes up this issue endeavouring to prove that infant baptism is a divine institution(Wendel 324). Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8). He reasons this primarily through paralleling circumcision and baptism, asserting that Scripture testifies to the fact that baptism is for the Christians what circumcision was previously for the Jews(Inst.4, 16, 11). This essay will undertake the task of manifesting the coherence, profundity, and thoroughness of Calvin's reasoning, while illuminating the congruence of his arguments with Scripture.

found here:

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ6yv7qv5bZDgAXYNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEybnJrcWVzBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjY1NzRfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1543445372/RO=10/RU=http://reformedtheology.ca/baptism.html/RK=2/RS=BB2U7mryk5h_7Scok9HX88Q6PTU-

I'm not sure any of us believe infant baptism is what the Church should be doing.........now, Dedication Ceremony is different that Baptism........
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Growing up in a catholic family I was infant baptized, and just about everybody I knew was as well. I got truly Baptized as an adult about 25 yrs ago.

I kinda look at infant baptism like how Jeremiah talks about the Christmas tree. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just a big fat nothing.

The problem, as you rightly say, is the absolute necessity some put on infant baptism. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find many of our reformed brothers and sisters that adhere to that doctrine. Which should prove that they follow the Lord through Scripture and NOT John Calvin.

Dang work is calling! BBL. Be blessed!
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#89
Oct 25, 2018
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#89
Hevosmies said:
I definately am a Christian who believes in predestination because its a BIBLE word.
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Most agree that predestination and that it is a biblical teaching, but they have varying views on how God used/uses it my friend.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#90
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#90
PennEd said:
Growing up in a catholic family I was infant baptized, and just about everybody I knew was as well. I got truly Baptized as an adult about 25 yrs ago.

I kinda look at infant baptism like how Jeremiah talks about the Christmas tree. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just a big fat nothing.

The problem, as you rightly say, is the absolute necessity some put on infant baptism. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find many of our reformed brothers and sisters that adhere to that doctrine. Which should prove that they follow the Lord through Scripture and NOT John Calvin.

Dang work is calling! BBL. Be blessed!
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The reformed people view it as a covenant sign that one is baptized into the covenant family, but holds to it being zero salvific. The RCC believes infant baptism actually saves the baby, reformed people do not. I am not a Presbyterian reformed, just a Baptist reformed believer.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#91
Sep 4, 2013
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#91
Here is an Article that looks at both sides.........it's interesting............

What does the foreknowledge of God mean?

As part of God’s character of omniscience (all knowing) is the concept of foreknowledge. What is it, and how does it relate to the free will of human beings?
Questions like these form the basis of great debate theologically and philosophically about the omniscience of God and the life of a human being. To what extent does God know the future, exercise control over it all the while human beings are morally responsible for their actions? This apparent paradox or contradiction has challenged people for centuries.
Foreknowledge (Greek: "prognōsis")


JUST FYI
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#93
Oct 25, 2018
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#93
p_rehbein said:
Here is an Article that looks at both sides.........it's interesting............

What does the foreknowledge of God mean?

As part of God’s character of omniscience (all knowing) is the concept of foreknowledge. What is it, and how does it relate to the free will of human beings?
Questions like these form the basis of great debate theologically and philosophically about the omniscience of God and the life of a human being. To what extent does God know the future, exercise control over it all the while human beings are morally responsible for their actions? This apparent paradox or contradiction has challenged people for centuries.
Foreknowledge (Greek: "prognōsis")


JUST FYI
Click to expand...
However, we also see foreknew, which is found in Romans 8:29 and 11:2, and it is a verb. Foreknowledge as the above article discusses, it comes from πρόγνωσις (prognosis) and it means "foreknowledge; in NT previous determination, purpose". God purposed the crucifixion of His Son via His foreknowledge, meaning He determined, purposed it to take place. In other words, He was the driving force behind His Son's crucifixion.

Same with foreknew, as He was the driving force behind foreknowing His elected people, and it is these people He predestined.

www.biblegateway.com has Mounce's Greek interlinear that I use and think its an outstanding resource to use.
 
U

UnderGrace

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#94
Hevosmies said:
Easy believism means they dont believe in a changed life after salvation. No repentance. Just "believe" in your mind and you are saved eternally, even if you become an atheist the next day. Sanctification is not required in any sense, no turning from sin, you dont even need to feel bad about it.
Thats the easy-believism.

How did we get to this point? It started off with the doctrine of Perseverance of the saints. Meaning, people ARE saved eternally, and kept by God, BUT all those who believed in this ALSO believed that repentance and faith are fruits of being born again. Not just a mere profession of faith.
This is all good. But then came along the easy-believism split where its just a mental assent to a list of doctrines and facts. "Yup im now saved"
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This is a very interesting thread, now some defend the actions of the reformers by saying we all sin and then others say well if we do not have a changed life we have easy believism.

What is exactly "mental assent" and who coined that phrase that gets thrown around all the time?

As well we do not sanctify ourselves, as well to be sanctified "santifico" means to be set apart and set aside.

Now is this "mere profession of faith" the fault of the hearer or the speaker?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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#95
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Yet, God did not base His election upon what He saw. Election is unconditional my friend, as He chose His elect based solely upon Himself, not fallen mankind.
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Sorry my friend, I can not agree.

God predestined based on what he saw. (whom he foreknew he did predestine) While your right, it is unconditional (God places no condition on salvation) it is still based on his will.

What was his will?

Again whoever SEES AND BELIEVES. (John 6)
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#96
eternally-gratefull said:
Sorry my friend, I can not agree.

God predestined based on what he saw. (whom he foreknew he did predestine) While your right, it is unconditional (God places no condition on salvation) it is still based on his will.

What was his will?

Again whoever SEES AND BELIEVES. (John 6)
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Okay, why do some believe and some reject my friend?
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#97
eternally-gratefull said:
Sorry my friend, I can not agree.

God predestined based on what he saw. (whom he foreknew he did predestine) While your right, it is unconditional (God places no condition on salvation) it is still based on his will.

What was his will?

Again whoever SEES AND BELIEVES. (John 6)
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However my friend, God did not see those who would see and believe and elect them accordingly. It was because He chose them from BEFORE the foundation of the world they chose to believe Him.

τάσσω (tassō)

to arrange; to set, appoint, in a certain station, Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; to set, devote, to a pursuit, 1 Cor. 16:15; to dispose, frame, for an object, Acts 13:48; to arrange, appoint, place or time, Mt. 28:16; Acts 28:23; to allot, assign, Acts 22:10; to settle, decide, Acts 15:2

This is found in Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.(NASB)

ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον·

That bolded Greek word means orderly, ordinate.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#98
Oct 25, 2018
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#98
eternally-gratefull said:
Sorry my friend, I can not agree.

God predestined based on what he saw. (whom he foreknew he did predestine) While your right, it is unconditional (God places no condition on salvation) it is still based on his will.

What was his will?

Again whoever SEES AND BELIEVES. (John 6)
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This is why people fail to believe and die lost my friend.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.(John 10:26)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Dec 12, 2013
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eternally-gratefull said:
Eternal life is a forign word.

Call it OSAS, or eternal security or any religious term you want. Eternal life is eternal life. And asJohn said, I have it. That is my hope. And what my Faith is based on.

If I have no hope. I have no faith

Hope in my ability to remain obedient is no hope at all. it is faith in self. And ones own ability.

God will allow them to boast all they wish, But sadly, there will come a day when their boasting will fail. And they will be brought to justice. Because they rejected the redemption which can only come through christ.

It is not a calvin vs arminius Issue, it is not a grace vs works issue, it is a issue of biblical truth..
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I know brother....saved to the uttermost, kept by the power of God though the faith he began and promises to finish, born of incorruptible seed and given the free gift of eternal life as an irrevocable gift......plain as day.....
 
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