Calvinism Critiqued

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Total depravity is about how God sees us, not how we see ourselves
Total Depravity is false doctrine since God expects all sinners to obey the Gospel. Indeed He commands all men everywhere to repent.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31)

A word for non-Calvinists. You could give the Calvinists a thousand verses from the Bible which totally refute their nonsense, but they will not believe God. They have Calvin as the final authority. It is truly amazing how Satan perverted the Reformation. The Reformers rejected the false doctrines of Roman Catholicism, but at the same time fully embraced the false doctrines of Augustine, the leading Catholic *authority*.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (c.f. Matthew 15:19)

Looks like total depravity to me.
Total depravity is about how God sees us, not how we see ourselves
You just ripped that out of context which the preceding verses gives.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Naylor, as much as it might pain you, and others here, one does NOT have to subscribe to the theological beliefs you have to be a Child of God. I have for many years had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to assure me, to guide me, to direct me, to comfort me and to witness that I am a Child of God. No creed required, nor following the teachings of some man required.
You are, of course, 100% correct! One does not have to subscribe to the theological beliefs of Calvin to be a child of God. Just BELIEVE in your heart that the Spirit of God raised up Jesus from the dead? And, POOF!! You are a child of God! Also called "children of light." Of these? There is NO condemnation!

Should you remember what I stated concerning Calvin, was that in, and during the perfecting, or maturing within my spirit? I have "experienced", MANY SIMILARITIES, to that which Calvin expressed. And, like I've stated before on several occasions? Until I came into CC? I hadn't really ever heard of John Calvin! Which, to me, anyways, warranted a closer inspection of his theological belief "system", I suppose would be a better way to put it. For this? However, there is MUCH condemnation for! And this? Is exercising your free will, to do so! That's OK, child of God! I can handle it!
Luke 12
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Although, I did inquire of you to answer Gods' "call" of pressing on to the "Higher Calling" of God, in Christ? I cannot, nor shall I force you, or anyone, for that matter, to answer it!

What I am doing however, is putting forth a testimony, to, and for those, like myself, who were born into this world and Heaven (age), that have been foreknown and predestined from a previous earth and Heaven age! And again? I shall not force anyone to believe, nor accept this!

I say "we", because I know there are more then just myself, here in this current time. Born from woman AT WAR from the womb, against the prince of this world (age)! That is to say satan!

Having already the Spirit of God, bearing wittness to our "flesh spirit" whilst we are still "nursing" from our mother's milk! What this does? And I can only answer for myself here, is LIMIT my ABILITIES in the conforming of my spirit, and mind, and heart in the bonding WITH the prince of this world! For me? This is IMPOSSIBLE! For my soul, you see? Is with the "Order of Melchizadek!" Which is, as you should know? A FOREVER Priesthood! Does this mean that my flesh body does not have needs for being baptised into Christ Jesus? As many opponents of Calvin's theology so loudly proclaim? God FORBID! I can understand, however, the why Calvin, and even the Catholic church, along with other denominations, do infant baptism. This is not really "necessary", as God "knows" where I am, and they are, and places us in the "ideal" scenario, where we do get baptized into Christ! According to His purpose, and good pleasure!

And yes? We are mocked and scoffed at in the eyes of natural man, who can't understand this, being "programmed" by the prince of this world (age), as folly in their eyes! Along with 5 bucks these days, will get ya a cup of coffee!

Dreamers! ADHD! Aspbergers, along with a whole host of "ailments and maladies" the eyes of men, with oh so much "aid in abundance", from the tree of knowledge, and good and evil! With a surety of more "labels" to come! To which opens ones' eyes to an "AWARENESS of SELF", or? A "separateness" FROM God! Which was NOT present before the "garden of Eden incident!" As the "gene pool", becomes more and more corrupted with each passing generation.

:p Ya know? There was a time, when I claimed I had "every mental, emotional, and social malady KNOWN to man!" "And, SOME, they haven't invented "names" for yet!" :p Some may even lay claim, that my Mom, missed her appointment at the abortion clinic! "NICE TRY HEROD!" :cool:

1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.



I'll just leave this here:
Isaiah 57
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.



 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Which is EXACTLY what I have been saying...........do not identify one's self as a disciple of Calvin, rather as a disciple of Christ......... It's the Gospel of Christ we should be focusing on, not the teachings of Calvin.

Yet, I am rudely criticized for saying that............... :)

A believer can say they are a Christian who believes in predestination, and that's fine! A believer can also say they are a Christian who believes in free will, and THAT TOO is fine!

One day soon, we will all see clearly as the glass darkly is removed...........

Seems, YOU are the ONLY one, I've seen ACCUSING people, by calling them DISCIPLES of Calvin!

Oh!....I get it now! Someone just mentions similarities to Calvin, in their Spiritual journeyings? And, NOW? IN YOUR EYES? THEY ARE NOW "DUES PAID UP", "CARD CARRYING DISCIPLES" of John Calvin?

Ya wanna tract? :) :p:p

Better go somewheres else with yer straw man arguments! Cuz, they not holding up to well on this thread!

(aww!...they always get riled up when someone pokes the spirit of anti christ in the eye! :p)

Geeze! Start telling people that believe love covers EVERY sin? That it don't? INSTANTANEOUSLY OFFENDED!
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Seems, YOU are the ONLY one, I've seen ACCUSING people, by calling them DISCIPLES of Calvin!

Oh!....I get it now! Someone just mentions similarities to Calvin, in their Spiritual journeyings? And, NOW? IN YOUR EYES? THEY ARE NOW "DUES PAID UP", "CARD CARRYING DISCIPLES" of John Calvin?

Ya wanna tract? :):p:p

Better go somewheres else with yer straw man arguments! Cuz, they not holding up to well on this thread!

(aww!...they always get riled up when someone pokes the spirit of anti christ in the eye! :p)

Geeze! Start telling people that believe love covers EVERY sin? That it don't? INSTANTANEOUSLY OFFENDED!
Exactly...

Hmmmm...p_rehbein. Embraces JW's and others with false gospels, attacks "Calvinists" who are orthodox, doctrinally sound and expound the truths of the Gospel.

Okey dokey...
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Well you can spin it all you want (thats the way I see it anyway)

God chose you

He did not chose someone else

That makes you special since both of you deserved hell.

Imagine if a father had 2 kids. Both whom rebelled against him, both who wanted nothing to do with him, And both who rejected him.

The father had the ability to save them both because he loved them both. But he chose one over the other just because. So he pays the ones debt so he can get out of prison, but leave the other there with no hope of ever getting out. Everyone who hears this story is going to look at the father and say he respected the one child over the other. Because he chose one, and not the other. And not only this, he did not even give the one child a chance to get out He left him their to rot. His excuse, He deserved it anyway.

On the other hand, The father has the ability to save both, He pays the price for both. Yet only one child recieves his grace gift. The other rejects it. The father is vindicated. And no one ever again will doubt that fathers true love, Because he paid the penalty for both. The one ended up never getting out of prison, But that was his fault, not the fathers.

This is my issue with calvanism, or as some call it fatalism. It does not show the true love of God. And will not put to death the claims against him for eternity. It leaves the door wide open for another rebellion. Because he became a respector of persons.
I am not spinning it any way I want. From Ephesians 1:4...

ἐκλέγομαι (eklegomai)

to pick out; in NT to choose, select, Lk. 6:13; 10:42; in NT to choose out as the recipients of special favor and privilege, Acts 13:17; 1 Cor. 1:27

God chose us from before the creation of the world...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.

Look at all the personal pronouns. Everyone who has been predestined has been predestined in accordance to His will.

The problem with your view, my friend, is you think the lost are looking for a way in to God’s kingdom, and all they need is a chance. That is not true at all. Lost man hates God, wants nothing to do with Him in His fallen state. They are at enmity...have an ill will towards God in their fallen state.

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.(Romans 8)

The lost are in the flesh and can not please God.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Well you can spin it all you want (thats the way I see it anyway)

God chose you

He did not chose someone else

That makes you special since both of you deserved hell.

Imagine if a father had 2 kids. Both whom rebelled against him, both who wanted nothing to do with him, And both who rejected him.

The father had the ability to save them both because he loved them both. But he chose one over the other just because. So he pays the ones debt so he can get out of prison, but leave the other there with no hope of ever getting out. Everyone who hears this story is going to look at the father and say he respected the one child over the other. Because he chose one, and not the other. And not only this, he did not even give the one child a chance to get out He left him their to rot. His excuse, He deserved it anyway.

On the other hand, The father has the ability to save both, He pays the price for both. Yet only one child recieves his grace gift. The other rejects it. The father is vindicated. And no one ever again will doubt that fathers true love, Because he paid the penalty for both. The one ended up never getting out of prison, But that was his fault, not the fathers.

This is my issue with calvanism, or as some call it fatalism. It does not show the true love of God. And will not put to death the claims against him for eternity. It leaves the door wide open for another rebellion. Because he became a respector of persons.
Not every is a child of God my friend. The Philistines, Egyptians, Jebusites, Hittites, Hivites, Syrians, Assyrians, et al, we’re not God’s children.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,110
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And verse 12 says, "[we/us] having fore-hoped in Christ" and then verse 13 says, "in whom you also, having heard the word of truth, the gospel your of salvation, in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..."
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Exactly...

Hmmmm...p_rehbein. Embraces JW's and others with false gospels, attacks "Calvinists" who are orthodox, doctrinally sound and expound the truths of the Gospel.

Okey dokey...

Some will get it? Some won't!

The "higher calling", that is!

Actually? It saddens me that they believe, or have been "duped" into believing, that, accepting the one who "stands in the temple", claiming to BE God, is NOT the same Christ that sez: "NO ONE comes UNTO the Father, BUT by Me!" Sure! Sure! See the Son? See the Father! From my limited understanding of english? Seeing the Father? Is NOT going UNTO the Father! (jez kidding P4T! I understands english just fine! Well? Save for those huge 50 cent words some people like using, to indicate their level of vanity of "sheepskinned" higher religiousisosity)

Tis an awful feeling, and whole of your body wrenching CONVICTION "experience." One which you had best be sitting down, and not doing anything, when it HITS ya!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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EXCERPT:

John Calvin’s interpretation of the Bible justified the murder of his theological opponents.

Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from killing them. Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin authorized beheadings, death by fire, and torture rather than exercise patience and kindness with competing theologians. His enforcement of biblical doctrines looked more like ISIS than Jesus.

FOUND HERE:

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ...ified-it/RK=2/RS=d1lQtjOEXv3VWJgNozJ46UC4XdE-
Truth about this accusation is Calvin had no authority to do anything in Geneva. He referred the issue to the civil authorities. Keep in mind that the governments at that time were religious and civil authorities. The government had those condemned to death for saying Jesus was not the savior. The site you list is not in conformation to other sites discussing these events.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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You give yourself far too much credit my friend. I do not hate you or any other living being. There is no need to hate............disagree with you? Sure. Completely.

And, not because you believe in predestination, but because you choose to identify yourself as a disciple of John Calvin. John Calvin was surely one who hated.............

Scripture tells me we are to identify ourselves as disciples of Jesus Christ. So, why choose a man? You know, it's perfectly ok to be a disciple of Christ, a Christian who believes in predestination without identifying yourself as a disciple of Calvin, right?

As for Threads in the past few weeks, you either are ignoring what has been going on, or are simply denying what has been going on. Many here are well aware of the influx of Calvin's disciples we have had over those few weeks, and months, and the Threads, Comments they have been posting.

You give yourself far too much credit. I do not hate you, I feel sorry for you.
You make very strong accusations against Calvin that is not born out in history. You say he had people killed at a time and place he had no authority to accomplish anything. He had no government power ever. It was the government through courts that had that power. If he tried to do it he would have been arrested for attempted murder and if successful for murder. What he did was to refer the matter to the government who then executed that man.

I prefer truth to your fabrications.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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I am going to post the Calvinism vs Arminianism concepts known as the Quinquarticular Controversy both sides have sites giving lengthy discussions about their 5 points with plenty of scripture references.

The early elders created the creeds to define what a Christian must believe. Knowing there were many disagreements on issues outside of them they stated those Biblical issues were to agree to disagree. Arminianism vs Calvinism is one example of these issues. The many protestant denominations where the gospel is preached is an example of this. Here is this controversy. Refute the Biblical defense each has if you can.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Which is WHY I keep saying that people who believe in predestination should identify themselves as disciples of Christ, not Calvin. They then would be Christians who believe in predestination......like you!

In my opinion, when people seek to be a disciple of a man, they are elevating the man over the Lord. Some tried to do this with the Apostle Paul, and he would have none of it. Why celebrate the man when one can celebrate the Lord? And, on this or the other Thread, don't remember which, I said that God can use bad people to accomplish good things............ But, WHY be a disciple of Calvin when one can be a disciple of Jesus Christ? Makes no sense to me............

God bless you and yours
You seem to relegate any difference of opinion with you as almost heretical. Calvinism, Arminianism and other Christian views are to agree to disagree while accepting each other as Christians.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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Seems, YOU are the ONLY one, I've seen ACCUSING people, by calling them DISCIPLES of Calvin!

Oh!....I get it now! Someone just mentions similarities to Calvin, in their Spiritual journeyings? And, NOW? IN YOUR EYES? THEY ARE NOW "DUES PAID UP", "CARD CARRYING DISCIPLES" of John Calvin?

Ya wanna tract? :):p:p

Better go somewheres else with yer straw man arguments! Cuz, they not holding up to well on this thread!

(aww!...they always get riled up when someone pokes the spirit of anti christ in the eye! :p)

Geeze! Start telling people that believe love covers EVERY sin? That it don't? INSTANTANEOUSLY OFFENDED!
I was not speaking of you, or even thinking of you........don't go off on a wrong track.......

Since Calvin began his ministry, and the tulip thingy, there have been followers, and THEY identified themselves as Calvinists. Not me. And it is to this I have been directing my attention. And, I have to wonder why the heart on the sleeve reaction? Is saying that people identify themselves as followers/disciples of Calvin an accusation? If so, then they are accusing themselves.

I do not think you are understanding................my POINT is, do not identify one's self as a follower/disciple of Calvin, identify one's self as a follower/disciple of Christ. AND, it is OK to say "I'm a Christian (disciple of Christ) that believes in predestination."

There is nothing wrong with that.................I don't care if someone believes in predestination. I do not, I believe in free will.

What I do care about is when people raise up Calvin and sing his praises..........and identify themselves as one of his followers/disciples and .................. RIGHT OVER THERE stands Jesus Christ .................. and He be like, "Seriously?"

Don't follow the created, follow the Creator.........

Until today, I did not even know you believed in predestination. If you do, that is surely your right. But I also have the right to disagree.............a God given, precious gift right called free will.

You surely changed from a loving Christian attitude to the one portrayed in the quote above rather easily did you not? And, you did so in error, as I was not even speaking to or of you................

And, this idea that you and others are somehow SUPERIOR to all other men is not Christ like whatsoever........in my opinion.
I pray that you and they receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and are able to see Scripture through spiritual eyes.

Anyway, given that you went waaayyyyy out into left field on this one............I'll leave you to it...........and you can cut out the anti christ bit.............You are sure quick to belittle, berate, and condemn those who disagree with you Brother..........hmm, and someone said I was a liar for saying people do that.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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You make very strong accusations against Calvin that is not born out in history. You say he had people killed at a time and place he had no authority to accomplish anything. He had no government power ever. It was the government through courts that had that power. If he tried to do it he would have been arrested for attempted murder and if successful for murder. What he did was to refer the matter to the government who then executed that man.

I prefer truth to your fabrications.
there is a plethora of Historical Records to show that Calvin signed the Death Warrants of at least 58 people..........you don't even know the definition of your Screen Name, and you want to instruct others in Historical Truths? Seriously?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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Truth about this accusation is Calvin had no authority to do anything in Geneva. He referred the issue to the civil authorities. Keep in mind that the governments at that time were religious and civil authorities. The government had those condemned to death for saying Jesus was not the savior. The site you list is not in conformation to other sites discussing these events.
Uh.........p.rehbein DID NOT SAY what you are quoting........that is an ARTICLE someone wrote. I provided it as FYI...........goodness.........you guys crack me up............
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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You seem to relegate any difference of opinion with you as almost heretical. Calvinism, Arminianism and other Christian views are to agree to disagree while accepting each other as Christians.
I don't care what people believe, nor do I insist they believe as me to be saved. I freely encourage others to read Scripture, and through sincere prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit to come to the understanding of Scripture they believe they are led to.

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension apparently because you simply do not understand any of my comments.
But, then..............back to the SN thingy

:)

goodness
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Brother Penn...........one other problem with Calvin that I have is this:

Infant Baptism

The most significant controversy to centre upon the sacrament of baptism has arguably been the debate over whether it is legitimate to baptize infants or not(McGrath 443). In his most renowned work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin takes up this issue endeavouring to prove that infant baptism is a divine institution(Wendel 324). Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8). He reasons this primarily through paralleling circumcision and baptism, asserting that Scripture testifies to the fact that baptism is for the Christians what circumcision was previously for the Jews(Inst.4, 16, 11). This essay will undertake the task of manifesting the coherence, profundity, and thoroughness of Calvin's reasoning, while illuminating the congruence of his arguments with Scripture.

found here:

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ...ism.html/RK=2/RS=BB2U7mryk5h_7Scok9HX88Q6PTU-

I'm not sure any of us believe infant baptism is what the Church should be doing.........now, Dedication Ceremony is different that Baptism........
Therefore do what the early elders stated. Outside of the creeds agree to disagree. You ignore that both Arminianism and Calvinism have directly opposing viewpoints both sides have a site defending scripturally their view!! This seems to be a problem in you and not either side of the Quinquarticular Controversy. You can't seem to accept any viewpoint other than yours. Get over it Calvinism and Arminianism are both Biblical even though they are diametrically opposed.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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And this post shows you do not grasp the teaching of unconditional election my friend. God elected people not based on anything from them. The elect were just as lost, just as wicked, just as rebellious, just as much the God-hater the non-elect are. (Eph. 2:3)
The wicked go astray from the womb. <--Lost

Before I brought thee forth from your mother's womb I knew thee <--Jeremiah