The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

Who is this directed to me?

So, have you changed your stance and admit that there is a 'gathering' and/or 'rapture'? I see these as the same event, btw.

It says except the days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, not that if Jesus did not come back no flesh would survive. It's a fine point, but I thought I'd mention it.

In this post, I do not see how you used any scriptures, above, to connect the dots. Where is the scripture that leads you to believe (presumably) that the dead are not rasied when Jesus gathered the elect? The issue is Paul speaking of the Lord's parousia as if it were an event to come. He uses the same word to refer to it in II Thes. 1:1 and 2:8 and I Thes. 4:15. So why shouldn't we see the rapture and the destruction of the man of sin as occurring at the one parousia of Christ? It's just simpler and it makes more sense. And it is reasonable for us to only interpret the 'parousia' as more than one return if there is some Biblical evidence for it.

No. But they do talk about jesus coming to earth as king, they do speak of him returning to destroy the final beast of Daniel. And revelations shows us, this is exactly what happens. And matt 24 jesus himself references this time

All those things you just mentioned have nothing to do with our conversation. I gave you specific passages of scripture you could look to. All you just did is further show you are not listening to a thing I am saying. Why else would you mention things which have nothign to do with the passage I spoke of?

Maybe just an error...

m....,

If your conclusion is biblical Then please explain the bible saying...(speaking to the Philadelphia church about the tribulation)....I will keep you from the hour that shall come upon all the earth, etc.

Most pretribbers want to pick and chose what passages make them feel good about escaping the persecution Father promised the church:

Those "stars" represent the seed of Abraham:

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Galatians 3:28-29 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

The dragon who with his tail drew the third part of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth were those seed of Abraham who fall away from sitting in heaven places in Christ Jesus doing His good works:

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), (6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: (7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: (8) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not of works, that no man should glory. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

They do not resist the devil through grace but fall back to the earth because of their double mindedness:

James 4:6-8 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. (7) Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.



1/3 of those with star glory that fall away from the truth:


Jesus as well as most of the disciples were martyred through the many antichrists but we do not label that the wrath of God but it certainly is tribulation of those saints as well as many saints from Christ's ascension:

1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour. (19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Acts 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

John 16:1-3 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble. (2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. (3) And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jesus was speaking directly to the disciples and by extension every Christian from that point on who are the seed of Abraham whether Jew or Greek(Gentile):

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. (28) There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Matthew 24:9-10 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake. (10) And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

Matthew 10:21-23 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. (22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. (23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Why can't most Christians see whether Jew or Gentile we are all one body, thus one olive tree, thus one commonwealth of Israel so that the cities of Israel are in every nation:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: (20) teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

All Israel is much bigger than most think:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

Those "stars" represent the seed of Abraham:

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Galatians 3:28-29 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

The dragon who with his tail drew the third part of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth were those seed of Abraham who fall away from sitting in heaven places in Christ Jesus doing His good works:

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), (6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: (7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: (8) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not of works, that no man should glory. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

They do not resist the devil through grace but fall back to the earth because of their double mindedness:

James 4:6-8 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. (7) Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.

Those 1/3 of the stars represent those who had star glory but shrink back to the earth from heavenlies places and are named among the sons of perdition thus fulfilling they mystery of lawlessness:

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Hebrews 10:35-39 Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. (36) For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise. (37) For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. (38) But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

Had to break into 2 parts. Again too long..



I see nothing here about the return to earth of the king. Here I see him recieving his harvest. Agan two different events

You also have another issue.

Rev 5:
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”


Here you have saints Already resurected (raptured. Already given their glorified bodies. And alreay haven gone through their judgment, Sitting in the throne room, watching the lamb open the 1st seal.

If the rapture does not happen UNTIL the end, as you say, Where did these people come from?
They were already raptures.d, The rapture PRECEDED these events. (Depending on who you talk to this is either the begining of the seven years, or the beginning of the 3.5 years of wrath. I lean towards the second, which the rapture and bema seat judgment (1 cor 13) happening before these events. but am not set in stone wth that interpretation.




Again, opinion not based on fact, It goes much deeper than this, as I have been tryign to show in all of my posts. Including the issue I just presented to you about the rapture already being taken place BEFORE the 1st seal is opened. (Yes they may be elders. But elders represent the churhc, Nothing says dthe rest of the raptured people were nto also in the room, the focus was on the elders. WHo ere already raptured.




Yep. Again, Where is the rapture here. This is his return, TO SAVE THE LIVES OF HE LIVING ELECT LIVING ON EARTH. Who would DIE along with ALL LIFE if jesus did not return at this time..

This is a whole new teaching I have never seen, " Here you have saints Already resurected (raptured. Already given their glorified bodies. And alreay haven gone through their judgment, Sitting in the throne room, watching the lamb open the 1st seal. "
The rapture is not the 1st resurrection. The first resurrection are those who reign with Christ that lived through the wrath of God and did not bow to the beast and chose Yeshua instead. They return with Christ to reign a 1000 years. The second death has no power over them. The rest of the dead live not again until the 1000 year is over. Then comes the 2nd resurrection and the judgement. And then the books are opened and if you are not in the book of life your destination is hell. I think that chapter 20 is pretty straight forward.

This is a whole new teaching I have never seen, " Here you have saints Already resurected (raptured. Already given their glorified bodies. And alreay haven gone through their judgment, Sitting in the throne room, watching the lamb open the 1st seal. "
The rapture is not the 1st resurrection. The first resurrection are those who reign with Christ that lived through the wrath of God and did not bow to the beast and chose Yeshua instead. They return with Christ to reign a 1000 years. The second death has no power over them. The rest of the dead live not again until the 1000 year is over. Then comes the 2nd resurrection and the judgement. And then the books are opened and if you are not in the book of life your destination is hell. I think that chapter 20 is pretty straight forward.

Most pretribbers want to pick and chose what passages make them feel good about escaping the persecution Father promised the church:

1 Peter 4:12-19 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial among you, which cometh upon you to prove you, as though a strange thing happened unto you: (13) but insomuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exceeding joy. (14) If ye are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are ye; because the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God resteth upon you. (15) For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil-doer, or as a meddler in other men's matters: (16) but if a man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this name. (17) For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? (18) And if the righteous is scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? (19) Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing unto a faithful Creator.

There are seven "women"(churches) taking hold of Christ in "that day" and they all want to eat their OWN leavened bread and wear their OWN moth eaten apparel:

Isaiah 4:1 And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name; take thou away our reproach.

2 Timothy 3:1-7 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. (2) For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, (3) without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, (4) traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; (5) holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away. (6) For of these are they that creep into houses(church buildings), and take captive silly women(churches) laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, (7) ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 5:7-12 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ: (8) wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (9) I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; (10) not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: (11) but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. (12) For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within?

Please notice Jesus is making reference to some in the church who are "called" but have not put on at least a 30 fold garment of the fruit of Christ and will not make the cut and be cast back out:

Matthew 22:11-14 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment: (12) and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless. (13) Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (14) For many are called, but few chosen.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

There is a difference between the lampros garment the bride will be wearing and the armies from heaven wearing a luekos garmewnt:

Revelation 19:7-8 Let us rejoice and be exceeding glad, and let us give the glory unto him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (8) And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright(Greek~ lampros) and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white(Greek~leukos) and pure.

Jesus will not be taking His bride(sun glory), His virgins(moon glory) who escort the bride to war but He most certainly will take His wedding guests(star glory):

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.

The Philadelphia church represents the bride with minimal rebuke:

Revelation 3:7-12 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth: (8) I know thy works (behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name. (9) Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (10) Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (11) I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. (12) He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

However the Laodicean church represents most of the westernized Americanized church that is naked when it comes to putting on the Lord Jesus Christ in at least a "leukos" garment but is instead focused on riches rather than holiness so the latter rain will be coming to separate the wheat from the tares in the days ahead:

James 5:1-7 Come now, ye rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you. (2) Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. (3) Your gold and your silver are rusted; and their rust shall be for a testimony against you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye have laid up your treasure in the last days. (4) Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. (5) Ye have lived delicately on the earth, and taken your pleasure; ye have nourished your hearts in a day of slaughter. (6) Ye have condemned, ye have killed the righteous one; he doth not resist you. (7) Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain.

Revelation 3:14-20 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: (15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. (16) So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth. (17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked: (18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see. (19) As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. (20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The parables of the sower prove much of this:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/03/19/parable-of-the-sower/

Continued to my previous post to eternally grateful----
Who is there before the opening of the seals? Now when He had taken the scroll,### the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders ### fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And ###they ###sang a new song, saying:
The prayers of the saints are in golden bowls not the saints.

Mat 25 has half taken,half left behind.

"So called" believers face the ac.
They seem to,for the most part reject the mark,have heads removed and are seen in heaven as the innumerable number.

So yes it is a pretrib rapture with nominal carnal believers left behind and seen in the gt.

The idea of a ''nominal carnal believer'' is false. A person is either saved by the shed blood of Christ or not. If they are not then they unbelievers. The term Saint means sanctified, set apart.

Paul tells us that Christ rewards his saints according to their works which will be tested by fire
some of those tested will find their works to be wood and stubble. Paul makes no distinction
regarding their salvation. There is no hint of one group being left behind and another special group being raptured as pre tribulationists claim. In Christs teaching its the unsaved that are taken not the righteous. Thats why he uses the flood as an illustration. It was the wicked that were swept away in the flood. Noah and all those in the Ark remained. The Ark is a type of Christ. Jesus has one Bride not a class A Bride and a class B

A Prophetic word.. I PRAYED to My FATHER NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scripture... John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Did you not READ, that My FATHER is AGAINST THOSE WHO TEACH HIS CHILDREN TO "FLY" to SAVE their SOULS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Ezekiel 13:20-23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, eventhe souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I AM COMING UNTO YOU, SO WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO.. Heaven as ALSO BEEN ON THIS EARTH, Thy KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH, ON EARTH, as it is in HEAVEN. This is how I taught you to PRAY, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ,unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that DID NOT RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH,

I AM YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is SHOWING YOU THE THREE NAMES of the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD in HEAVEN as well as in EARTH.

Yah..... who is My FATHER
YOSHUA........WHO I AM, THE "WORD" as well as the SON
AH.............Which is SIGNIFIED by the HOLY SPIRIT, through the COVENANT AGREEMENT, that I HAVE

TOGETHER, this SPELLS "YAHOSHUA" WHO I AM, for this is HOW YOU FIND ME....

Now, you show me in the name of JESUS/YESHUA, or any other name showing you these names.. For I tell you this.. If My FATHER is BEARING RECORD to MY NAME, HIS WORD is "GREATER" Then MAN'S, and YES, EVEN YOURS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU who are of the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...
1John 5:7-13 FOR THERE ARE “THREE" WITNESSES THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE “FATHER", THE “WORD", and THE “HOLY SPIRIT": AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the “SPIRIT", and the “WATER" and the “BLOOD": and these THREE all AGREE in “ONE. If we receive the WITNESS of MEN, the “WITNESS" of the FATHER is GREATER: for this is the witness of the FATHER WHICH “HE” HATH “TESTIFIED” of His “SON”. He that believeth on the Son of the FATHER HATH THE “WITNESS” IN “HIMSELF”: he that believeth NOT THE FATHER HATH MADE “HIM”, [meaning the FATHER] A “LIAR"; because he believeth not the RECORD THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIS “SON". AND THIS IS THE “RECORD" THAT THE FATHER HATH GIVEN TO US “ETERNAL LIFE", AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS “SON”. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of the FATHER hath not life. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE ON THE “NAME" OF THE “SON" of the FATHER; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE “ETERNAL LIFE", and that ye may believe on the name of the “SON” of the FATHER.


SHALOM

The idea of a ''nominal carnal believer'' is false. A person is either saved by the shed blood of Christ or not. If they are not then they unbelievers. The term Saint means sanctified, set apart.

Paul tells us that Christ rewards his saints according to their works which will be tested by fire
some of those tested will find their works to be wood and stubble. Paul makes no distinction
regarding their salvation. There is no hint of one group being left behind and another special group being raptured as pre tribulationists claim. In Christs teaching its the unsaved that are taken not the righteous. Thats why he uses the flood as an illustration. It was the wicked that were swept away in the flood. Noah and all those in the Ark remained. The Ark is a type of Christ. Jesus has one Bride not a class A Bride and a class B

Yes indeed and ALL ripped out of context, for there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture!

Matt 24v29-31 states: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And many other verses!

Some see 'the elect' as the Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah til the end. I'm asking around on the insight of 11 Thes 2:1-8, thx.

Who thinks this? I never heard anyone in my life say the elect is only unbelieving jews

As for 2 thess

1. There will be an apostacy (A great falling away) I think we are witnessing the beginnings of this today
2. Then the restrainor wil be removed (Only God can restrain)
Then the man of sin will be revealed.
3. Whatever is taken out of the way, A strong delusion is sent so people who love sin will not see what is happening

Ie. It is a prety major event.

Had to break into 2 parts. Again too long..



I see nothing here about the return to earth of the king. Here I see him recieving his harvest. Agan two different events

You also have another issue.

Rev 5:
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”


Here you have saints Already resurected (raptured. Already given their glorified bodies. And already haven gone through their judgment, Sitting in the throne room, watching the lamb open the 1st seal.

If the rapture does not happen UNTIL the end, as you say, Where did these people come from?
They were already raptures.d, The rapture PRECEDED these events. (Depending on who you talk to this is either the begining of the seven years, or the beginning of the 3.5 years of wrath. I lean towards the second, which the rapture and bema seat judgment (1 cor 13) happening before these events. but am not set in stone wth that interpretation.




Again, opinion not based on fact, It goes much deeper than this, as I have been tryign to show in all of my posts. Including the issue I just presented to you about the rapture already being taken place BEFORE the 1st seal is opened. (Yes they may be elders. But elders represent the churhc, Nothing says dthe rest of the raptured people were nto also in the room, the focus was on the elders. WHo ere already raptured.




Yep. Again, Where is the rapture here. This is his return, TO SAVE THE LIVES OF HE LIVING ELECT LIVING ON EARTH. Who would DIE along with ALL LIFE if jesus did not return at this time..