2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism

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Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise UNTIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep."

Rev 11: 18, "...and the TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, SMALL AND GREAT, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Where do we find the same language of these 2 verses in the Bible?

Rev 20: 11-12, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY and there was found no place for them. And I saw the DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the DEAD were JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. This makes all forms of premillennialism false. It doesn't matter if you are pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, they are all forms of premillennialism and cannot be true according to the above Scriptures.

Premillennialism has people being resurrected while there is still a heavens to populate a supposed 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This directly contradicts Job 14: 12.

Rev 11: 18 is the seventh trumpet. All premillennialists believe this event happens BEFORE the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Not possible according to this verse since it is the "time of the dead that they should be judged" and we see that this happens AFTER the 1,000 years in Rev 20.
Well i can discount Job.. That verse was Job speaking it was not God.. God came down to Job and his friends and corrected them on more then a few things..

Revelation 20 Makes it clear that there will be two distinct and seperate reasurections 1000 years apart..

Revelation 20: KJV

4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {5} But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

How much more clearer can the Holy Bible be.. The Saints who where beheaded for their witness of Jesus shall Live and reign with Christ during the 1000 years..
 
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Locoponydirtman

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This rabbit hole doesn't lead to wonderland, it leads to a bottomless pit.
 
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Locoponydirtman

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Jesus is coming back 3 more times.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Can you provide me a Scripture that explicitly states that Jesus will rule and reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years?
Since revelation 20 isnt explicit enough, what about the prophecies about the Messiah ruling from the throne of David?

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Why cant this be new heaven and earth? Well I think the clue is in the phrase "shall execute judgment and justice in the earth". If everyone is a saved individual in glorified bodies, is this necessary?
 

Hevosmies

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Let me quote Rev 11: 18 again, "...and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth."

You are making the false claim that Rev 11: 18 is only talking about "the walking dead, the unsaved, uncalled living people." With all due respect this is incredibly bad exegesis on your part. For instance:

The verse says the "time of the dead". We have 2 options here for interpreting this. The first option is that it means everyone who has lived and died physically on planet earth or your option which is that these are "spiritually dead" but physically alive people. Which one is correct?

The answer is obvious. I bolded in the verse above "reward your servants the prophets and the saints" When did the prophets live? They lived in the Old Testament. They are clearly physically dead but spiritually alive being saved individuals.
what about this? anyone got something?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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what about this? anyone got something?

Both of his passages appear to me as a big fat nothing burger as it relates to his erroneous view that there will be no 1000 yr reign by Christ on Earth. He thinks he's got these silver bullet verses, but it's only something he's built in his mind.

Revelation 11:15-19, is like Genesis in that both have an outline Chapter, followed by specifics. We wouldn't have chapters 12 to 22 if everything ended in chapter 11.
 

Hevosmies

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Both of his passages appear to me as a big fat nothing burger as it relates to his erroneous view that there will be no 1000 yr reign by Christ on Earth. He thinks he's got these silver bullet verses, but it's only something he's built in his mind.

Revelation 11:15-19, is like Genesis in that both have an outline Chapter, followed by specifics. We wouldn't have chapters 12 to 22 if everything ended in chapter 11.
The book of Revelation is not a chronological book imo.

Simple way to see this is read Revelation 6 where the earth is taking some massive damage. Then in the next chapter where the 144 000 are sealed it says dont hurt the earth or anything in it until these 144 000 are sealed.

Another one is to compare the trumpets and vials, and see how both lead to the second coming.

But I assume you are of the "party line" so to speak and believe its chronological, in which case to you the fact that there is a next chapter is convincing.
To me its not. If you dont agree thats fine, im not dogmatic on it.

I would like to know what the rewarding of the prophets in the verse means to you since you believe the story continues after that trumpet. How are they rewarded?
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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Well i can discount Job.. That verse was Job speaking it was not God.. God came down to Job and his friends and corrected them on more then a few things..
Using your logic we throw out all the epistles and many other books in the Old and New Testament. The argument refutes itself.

How much more clearer can the Holy Bible be.. The Saints who where beheaded for their witness of Jesus shall Live and reign with Christ during the 1000 years..
Based on your assumption that the "first resurrection" is physical. Job 14: 12 and Rev 11: 18 shows that not possible. It is a spiritual resurrection.

Rev 11: 18 tells us the dead are judged at the seventh trumpet. Where is the only place we find a judgment in Revelation? Rev 20: 11-15 at the Great White Throne which is after the 1,000 years. Therefore the seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years.

Do you throw out Revelation 11: 18 too?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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The book of Revelation is not a chronological book imo.

Simple way to see this is read Revelation 6 where the earth is taking some massive damage. Then in the next chapter where the 144 000 are sealed it says dont hurt the earth or anything in it until these 144 000 are sealed.

Another one is to compare the trumpets and vials, and see how both lead to the second coming.

But I assume you are of the "party line" so to speak and believe its chronological, in which case to you the fact that there is a next chapter is convincing.
To me its not. If you dont agree thats fine, im not dogmatic on it.

I would like to know what the rewarding of the prophets in the verse means to you since you believe the story continues after that trumpet. How are they rewarded?
I think you misunderstood me. I think the passage in Rev 11 is a synopsis including the end. I agree that it is not always chronological.
 

Hevosmies

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I think you misunderstood me. I think the passage in Rev 11 is a synopsis including the end. I agree that it is not always chronological.
Sorry for the misunderstanding brother. Thanks.

I agree with you then
 

delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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Since revelation 20 isnt explicit enough, what about the prophecies about the Messiah ruling from the throne of David? Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Why cant this be new heaven and earth? Well I think the clue is in the phrase "shall execute judgment and justice in the earth". If everyone is a saved individual in glorified bodies, is this necessary?
We can argue about whether this is a millennium with Jesus in Jerusalem or whether this is the new heavens and earth. You are going to say it's the millennium, I'm going to say it is not. Our presuppositions are driving us in this particular passage because the passage itself is sufficiently vague as to the timing.

This is why I used the 2 verses I did in this thread. They are not vague or ambiguous. They are crystal clear. Nobody has offered an argument against them yet except these:

For Job 14: 12, "It's Job speaking so we can't trust the verse!" :ROFL: or "It's a spiritual heavens!" :rolleyes: (with no justification from the context of the passage for that).

And For Rev 11: 18, "It's only the righteous!" :confused: (But the verse says it's the dead which would include everybody)

So nobody has offered anything yet that is worthy of consideration. The verses are clear in what they mean but people just go on ignoring them anyways. Hopefully the thread will bless someone who has an open heart and mind.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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Both of his passages appear to me as a big fat nothing burger as it relates to his erroneous view that there will be no 1000 yr reign by Christ on Earth. He thinks he's got these silver bullet verses, but it's only something he's built in his mind.
No. I actually know how to read. You decided a long time ago that you don't care what Scripture says about the nature of the 1,000 years in Revelation. You are going to have your 1,000 year reign with Christ on earth no matter what. You are dispensationalist till you die. :cry:

Revelation 11:15-19, is like Genesis in that both have an outline Chapter, followed by specifics. We wouldn't have chapters 12 to 22 if everything ended in chapter 11.
It's called recapitulation. The prophetic books do it all the time.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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So nobody has offered anything yet that is worthy of consideration.
Accept for you, correct?

Frankly your above is sad and smug.

I've given you some good advice on the Job 14:12 text, but you cannot think outside your box and just reject it. Like stated, there are others who also hold the same view I gave, and contextually it is accurate. You just don't like it when a text you choose doesn't happen to support you after all, or has evidence contextually that you could be incorrect.

Not you, you simply cannot ever be incorrect. That and you're the only one offering anything worthy of consideration. :)