Modern State of Israel: Is it biblical?

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JimmieD

JimmieD

Senior Member
#161
Apr 11, 2014
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#161
prove-all said:
For, lo, I will command, and I will sift [the house of Israel] among [all nations],
like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth”

-odd the house of Israel was sifted among [all nations here],
not the house of Judah. [Amos 9:9] When did this happen ?
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I stand by my previous post and reasons, which you haven't addressed here. The leadership in the North was deported and replaced, certainly. But most of the populace remained in place to be ruled by Assyria.

"Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel, and removed them out
of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only" (2 Kings 17:18).
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And you still haven't dealt with the verses I posted. The North wasn't a viable self-governing entity anymore as they had been overtaken by Assyria, but most of the populace probably remained in place. Some of the reasons I have were previously given.

The Jewish historian Josephus (37–100 CE) wrote that "the ten tribes are beyond the
Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and not to be estimated in numbers".
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Well, then Josephus overstates his case here.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#162
Dec 15, 2018
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#162
I dont know how the jewish people still think they under the old covenant when their temple was destroyed, but they still practise the laws of Moses, well some of it, obviously cant keep them all. For example circumcision, which was required under the old covenant as the first thing Abraham did. Covenant means 'to cut' and every male child on the eighth day is circumcised...thats just what theyve carried on doing.

Not saying its right or wrong, but they still do it.
I dont believe God has cast away his people Israel who he foreknew. He is patient with them, imagine knowing all about God yet not acknowledging His son. Today I dont believe its necessarily because they actively refuse, but any child growing up jewish has their parents and rabbis teach them that Jesus is not the messiah, or they are shielded from the truth. Their bibles do not include the new testament...back in the day they didnt have it, and when it was collated, it was all in greek. Thankfully there are Hebrew translations available to them and the word is spreading. The book of Hebrews was written for them, (all israelites) but as far as I know it was in greek which was the common language of the time.

Why did they call their nation Israel and not Judah, well the thing with Judah tribe was they kind of had the lot of land with Jerusalem where the temple was located, with the land its all about location, location, location. Israel encompasses all the tribes not just Judah, but judah is the one thats contentious. They were able to observe more as they didnt have far to go to offer sacrifices, the rest of the tribes had to travel into Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts and make the sacrifices. Judah was the tribe from which kings came.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
#164
#164
Regathered in Unbelief

Many of the prophecies calling for the Jewish people to be regathered to the land of Israel also call for them to be gathered there without faith in their God. It is very unfortunate, but today in Israel there are so many who do not have a practicing faith in Jehovah God. In fact, many in Israel today are either atheist or agnostic.
This is the scenario that is called for in Ezekiel 37:1-28 known as the “valley of dry bones” chapter. Ezekiel 37:11- 14 leaves no question that Jewish people will be gathered from all over the world to the land of Israel before the Spirit is placed within them. Therefore, lack of faith in God in Israel today is in perfect harmony with the condition called for in Ezekiel 37.
However, Ezekiel goes on to declare that a bright day is coming for the people of Israel, spiritually and physically, a day when she will be redeemed from all of her wanderings and floundering (Ezekiel 11:17-21; 36:24-28). Her focus on her Lord will return, and the purpose for which she was originally set apart as a nation, to lead the nations in the knowledge of the Lord, will take center stage (Zechariah 12:10). Those days are just ahead of us.
 
tanakh

tanakh

Senior Member
#165
Dec 1, 2015
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KJV1611 said:
Israel IS NOT under the old covenant now.

Hebrews 8:10 WAS FULFILLED when God put his laws in their mind and wrote them in their hearts when he gave them the new covenant 2000 years ago.

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
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A person needs to believe in Christ to be part of the New Covenant. How many Jews recognise him as Messiah now?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#166
#166
The jews will not recognize him as messiah until AFTER the time of the gentiles is completed.

So again, Jews living in Israel in a state of unbelef should be expected. Because the age of the gentile is still active.
 
ProphetExcalibur

ProphetExcalibur

Senior Member
#167
Oct 12, 2012
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eternally-gratefull said:
No I am not I am seperating them, I asked the question in response to people who say we replace the church and God is done with Isreal (the nation) ie, his physical promises are no longer in effect or were never given.

Please try to read what people say.
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Did the righteous of old covenant Israel not receive all that was promised to them in the resurrection of the Dead, which was the main theme of Jesus Christ fulfilling the law and the prophets?! Old covenant Israel does not exist on this Earth or in sheol any longer; all the promises make to have been kept.😋
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#168
#168
ProphetExcalibur said:
Did the righteous of old covenant Israel not receive all that was promised to them in the resurrection of the Dead, which was the main theme of Jesus Christ fulfilling the law and the prophets?! Old covenant Israel does not exist on this Earth or in sheol any longer; all the promises make to have been kept.😋
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I am not talking about the old covenant, (mosaic) I am talking about the eternal covenant given to abraham.

If we do not understand what covenant we are discussing, it is kind of hard to have a point of reference with which to understand each other.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#169
Aug 3, 2018
10,159
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#169
"By so much also, Jesus has become the guarantee [a surety] of a better covenant." Hebrews 7:22
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#170
Nov 23, 2013
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#170
tanakh said:
A person needs to believe in Christ to be part of the New Covenant. How many Jews recognise him as Messiah now?
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Not many, but what does that have to do with anything?
 
ProphetExcalibur

ProphetExcalibur

Senior Member
#171
Oct 12, 2012
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#171
eternally-gratefull said:
I am not talking about the old covenant, (mosaic) I am talking about the eternal covenant given to abraham.

If we do not understand what covenant we are discussing, it is kind of hard to have a point of reference with which to understand each other.
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Okay let's look at the times of the gentiles! U Say they have not been fulfilled, i say they have, fair enough now which is true??

Who were the gentiles according to scripture? They were the 70 Nations that God disinherited after Nimrod and Babel when these (the 70 Nations were under the authority of the fallen Angels of Mt Herman) descendents of Adam tried to build a portal back into heaven. Then God takes Israel as His wife at Sinai, these Nations become their mortal enemies, right?? So why do you still refer to yourself or anyone else today as a gentile. I bring this up because you make this a point to your statement of the promises' of Abraham!

Fast forward to Jesus, okay. He's commanded by the crowd one day to give them a sign proving Himself to be their Messiah! He tells them the only sign He will give them is the prophecy of Jonah and the repentance of the gentiles. These people of the old way in Adam understand what Jesus is saying and they are infuriated even more. The times of the gentiles was 30ad to 70ad. This is why Paul is so important to the Gospel he seen this fulfilled personally. In as much as he says ....... there are no more Jew or gentile...... Jesus fulfilled the bloody demand of the law and the prophets, so both could come in through Him as the gate back into heaven. The promises of Abraham will not be fully known until all the Stars of heaven and all the sand of the sea are under a proper covenant, which lies right before us.

I agree with you! So let me know if I got a little closer to the right place!
Jesus told those of Jerusalem who mocked Him, that the kingdom of God was being taken from them and was fixing to be given to another. I believe the times of the gentiles have to be placed somewhere in Jesus day as fulfilled before we can go forward to Abraham' promises. So my brother if you do not agree that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus said it was, please explain. TKS 😋
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#172
#172
ProphetExcalibur said:
Okay let's look at the times of the gentiles! U Say they have not been fulfilled, i say they have, fair enough now which is true??

Who were the gentiles according to scripture? They were the 70 Nations that God disinherited after Nimrod and Babel when these (the 70 Nations were under the authority of the fallen Angels of Mt Herman) descendents of Adam tried to build a portal back into heaven. Then God takes Israel as His wife at Sinai, these Nations become their mortal enemies, right?? So why do you still refer to yourself or anyone else today as a gentile. I bring this up because you make this a point to your statement of the promises' of Abraham!

Fast forward to Jesus, okay. He's commanded by the crowd one day to give them a sign proving Himself to be their Messiah! He tells them the only sign He will give them is the prophecy of Jonah and the repentance of the gentiles. These people of the old way in Adam understand what Jesus is saying and they are infuriated even more. The times of the gentiles was 30ad to 70ad. This is why Paul is so important to the Gospel he seen this fulfilled personally. In as much as he says ....... there are no more Jew or gentile...... Jesus fulfilled the bloody demand of the law and the prophets, so both could come in through Him as the gate back into heaven. The promises of Abraham will not be fully known until all the Stars of heaven and all the sand of the sea are under a proper covenant, which lies right before us.

I agree with you! So let me know if I got a little closer to the right place!
Jesus told those of Jerusalem who mocked Him, that the kingdom of God was being taken from them and was fixing to be given to another. I believe the times of the gentiles have to be placed somewhere in Jesus day as fulfilled before we can go forward to Abraham' promises. So my brother if you do not agree that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus said it was, please explain. TKS 😋
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The age of the gentile is still active today. How do we know? Christ has not returned.

God said the gentiles would trample jerusalem. Starting with baylon, then media persia, then greece, then rome, then there would be a period after the temple is deatroyed by rome where desolation will continue for an undetermined amount of time. Then rome woudl come back more powerful than the first rome. And that final gentile empire would be destroyed by Jesus himself. The rock who would crush the Statue of nebechadnezzar or the final beast of Dan 7.
 
ProphetExcalibur

ProphetExcalibur

Senior Member
#173
Oct 12, 2012
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#173
eternally-gratefull said:
The age of the gentile is still active today. How do we know? Christ has not returned.

God said the gentiles would trample jerusalem. Starting with baylon, then media persia, then greece, then rome, then there would be a period after the temple is deatroyed by rome where desolation will continue for an undetermined amount of time. Then rome woudl come back more powerful than the first rome. And that final gentile empire would be destroyed by Jesus himself. The rock who would crush the Statue of nebechadnezzar or the final beast of Dan 7.
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Have you not read the scripture where Jesus personally tell's the exact time and season of His 2nd coming at the end of that same generation that would crucify Him?? In about 70ad. Explicitly and straight forward no symbolic language or parables, it's the only time in the Word of God that it is made known to us in this manner?!!

So here again we disagree and that's all good, cause that's what we're here for. Do you know the scripture?? TKS 😋
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#174
Dec 15, 2018
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#174
So there are two schools of thought Jesus returned in ad 70 and the other says he hasnt returned. Is this right. Then how to explain the existence of jews and nation of israel, and if Jesus did return why isnt the kingdom of heaven here now with the throne in Jerusalem.

If it was only the window of 33-70ad then why...are we not all living in the promised land right now. Shouldnt the jewish people have all been wiped out. But then...how to explain the gates of heaven opened and the 144,000 from each tribe. Plus all the others in white robes. In revelation.

What was Jesus saying in revelation 3:9 about those who say they are jews and are not?
He says they are of the synagogue of Satan! Ok now am confused.

Am not a dispensationalist but im not an amill either. Both kinda dont make sense, they only make sense up to a point and then I think, um..no that cant be right. I think both schools of thought are missing some thing or maybe skipped some verses in Revelation, got them in the wrong order or maybe I just dont get them.
 
tanakh

tanakh

Senior Member
#175
Dec 1, 2015
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#175
KJV1611 said:
Not many, but what does that have to do with anything?
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This was my reply to your statement that God put his Laws in their Hearts and Minds 2000 years ago. This is true for some but the bulk
of the Jewish population show no evidence of it then or now otherwise Israel would be a Christian Country.
 
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Embankment

Senior Member
#176
Feb 28, 2017
693
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#176
I am certain the current Israel has a place in God’s plan.
However, a group of people who collectively reject Jesus serounded by other groups of people who collectively reject Jesus is not the place God wants people to be.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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#177
Sep 8, 2018
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#177
Seems to me we are faced with very two extremes in this issue.

Either there is absolutely no plans for Israel and its all done for, or jews are automatically saved and dont even need to be evangelized. (Like John Hagee teaches)

Is there not a reasonable middle ground here? Where YES Israel is very wicked, just like any other nation is wicked, but in the FUTURE, before Jesus returns many of them will get saved, WHY is that so hard to believe?
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#178
Nov 23, 2013
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#178
Hevosmies said:
Seems to me we are faced with very two extremes in this issue.

Either there is absolutely no plans for Israel and its all done for, or jews are automatically saved and dont even need to be evangelized. (Like John Hagee teaches)

Is there not a reasonable middle ground here? Where YES Israel is very wicked, just like any other nation is wicked, but in the FUTURE, before Jesus returns many of them will get saved, WHY is that so hard to believe?
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Why do you think many of them will be saved in the future?
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#179
Sep 8, 2018
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#179
KJV1611 said:
Why do you think many of them will be saved in the future?
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Because of what the Bible teaches.

Im sure you've seen the verses. And probably interpret them differently from me. But thats what I believe Paul is talkign about in Romans, after the number of gentiles comes in.
 
G

garee

Banned
#180
Mar 28, 2016
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#180
Hevosmies said:
Seems to me we are faced with very two extremes in this issue.

Either there is absolutely no plans for Israel and its all done for, or jews are automatically saved and dont even need to be evangelized. (Like John Hagee teaches)

Is there not a reasonable middle ground here? Where YES Israel is very wicked, just like any other nation is wicked, but in the FUTURE, before Jesus returns many of them will get saved, WHY is that so hard to believe?
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I would offer its neither extreme. Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for zero. That should mean something.

Salvation never had any to do with the flesh of a Jew or gentile, male or female. What we are is not what we will be.

The first century reformation is over. The period of time he did use the Jew as a parable for a temporal time came to a end. The government was restored to before their were Kings in Israel with God reigning from heaven as King.

We walk by faith with no outward representative. Jews are in the same boat as any gentile nation.
 
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