Daniel 9:25 & 26

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#41
The 70 weeks cover the period up to and including Christs death and resurrection and the forming of the Church.
Nowhere does scripture say that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple are part of the 70 weeks. Jesus
predicted that the generation that were alive during his ministry would not pass away before the events of 70AD
happened. A generation in biblical terms is about forty years based on Israels period in the wilderness and some
other references.. Its no suprise therefore that the period between Christs first coming and the events of AD70
amount to about 40 years.

What would be a suprise is that God sent an Angel to tell Daniel that there would be 70 weeks of years when all the time
he intended to stick 2000 plus years in between the 69th and 70th week without telling him. It makes God to look a little
sneaky. I believe God says what he means in scripture and means what he says.
Still pure guess work. All i wanted was someone to show me by way of calculation how 70week prophesy comes up to 1st century whether 33 AD or 40 AD or 70 AD- from here we can compare with what the angel said to Daniel and see how it is a fit or a failed interpretation.
When Jesus prophesied about 'the end' within that generation, He also said wars and rumors of wars do not really mark the end - so according to His own words, 70AD was not the end of anything but the beginning.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#42
Still pure guess work. All i wanted was someone to show me by way of calculation how 70week prophesy comes up to 1st century whether 33 AD or 40 AD or 70 AD- from here we can compare with what the angel said to Daniel and see how it is a fit or a failed interpretation.
When Jesus prophesied about 'the end' within that generation, He also said wars and rumors of wars do not really mark the end - so according to His own words, 70AD was not the end of anything but the beginning.
I would say 70 WEEKS would be a pretty good indicator of a failed interpretation. The week for a day in Ezekiel is TOTALLY unrelated to Daniel.

Ezekiel foreshadowed Jesus bearing the iniquity of Israel and Judah for 490 day, a little over a year. Daniel 9 is about how long Israel would exist as a nation. The two are not related whatsoever.

Ezekiel's "day for a year" doesn't make one day equal to a year, it gives the time of the ministry of Jesus to Israel and Judah.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#43
Yes there is a huge gap between the first half and the second half of the 70th week.
The first half was the ministry of Christ, from His baptism till His death.
The second half will begin when the man of sin arrives. That is still in the future.

You keep referring to "the abomination of desolation" but that term is not used in verse 27.
Notice what Daniel said
"He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abomination He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".
The bolded words are the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus. In Fact, Jesus stated this would be the start of the great tribulation.

Matt 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the[c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

This is the last 3.5 years which will be put to an end by the return of CHrist himself. For as Jesus said, if he did not. No flesh (life) would survive.


Now just what happened when Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.
Unlike all the previous times God brought judgment upon Israel for their sin, where they remained a nation (except for the 70 years that many were exiled in Babylon) even though they were under the authority of Gentile nations, this time they were totally destroyed, scattered, and ceased to be a nation. This remained true until 1948.
During this 1900 years, the Jews remained scattered and were at the mercy of all who would destroy them. From time to time, God did intervene to save a remnant. But what was determined was poured out on them.
God used Titus to bring judgment upon His nation because they committed the unpardonable sin.
They not only reject His Son, they also blasphemed His name, and murdered Him.
Even today, even though they are a nation, the reality is that at still at the mercy of Gentile nations. They would have fallen many times during the last 70 years if not for the military and economic power of the US.
I do nto agree my friend, God did exactly what he promised he would do to them. If they rebelled and did not obey his commandments.

Lev 26:
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You[g] shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36 ‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness[i] into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;
the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;
they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;
and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.

38 You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And those of you who are left shall [j]waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;
also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.


This was prophesied. It is partially what happened when babylon destroyed Isreal. But even then they were still left in the land. And still survived as a nation. This was totol fulfilled in 70 ad for the firs ttime in Israels history. It is what Daniel was refereing to when he made his intercessary prayer in Dan 9, And What gabriel was sent to give him an answer to his prayer. In Fact, Gabriel told daniel that 70 AD was going to happen (And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.) As we see, He not only said it would happen. He said after it happened It would stay desolate until the end of war desolations are determined (in other words God has determined how long this will remain, but he did not give us the time) while granted. Their rejection of Christ did have a part in this. The penalty was determined for their sins according to lev 26.

Also remember, the verses following the ones I posted. God promised IF Isreal woudl repent. He would remember th eland and the promises. And I think we see in other prophesies this event will also occure

Go to Matthew 24 and notice what Jesus said to those leaders of the people.
As He left them, He basically He told them that they had crossed the line. He was through with them. They would now pay the price for their abominations.

The prince referred to in verse is Vespasian, not the man of sin.
The Man of sin is not mentioned in Daniel 9.
Jesus cause the sacrifices to cease (they were no longer necessary nor acceptable) when He went to the cross.
Again, I can not agree. Vespian did not start the great tribulation. He did not begin the end of the age as jesus spoke about. And jesus did not return. There has also been 2 world wars which made the events of 70 AD look like a picnic. I believe the 7 years occure AFTER the destruction. That someone makes a 7 year covenant, this is the final week of daniels 70 weeks. In the middle of that week. He himself puts an end to sacrifice and burnt offering by placing an abomination which causes desolation on the wing of the temple (holy place) and that Jesus said when you see this, Run, because this will immediately be followed by great tribulation. Such as has never been seen before (we are told this one othe rplace in the scripture. When we are told of the time of Jacobs troub;e, which will be a time like non other. Wher Jacob is saved (see rev 13) and at the end, jacob repents. I think we have to put all prophetic scriptures to gether to see a picture. Just looking at one prophesy is not quite enough.

It is good to talk with you, but I will probably not be able to continue for a time.
May God bless.
I hope whatever is ailing you is short live, Will be praying..
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
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#44
What a mish--mash of ideas on how to figure the 70 weeks. Think I've seen 70 ideas on it in various forums.
One truth sticks out.......that the 70 weeks do end at the destruction of the temple.......that was basically the end of the Jewish wars.
Daniel says "blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1335th day. So once again I give you this information...receive it or not.

70 weeks = 1290 days to destruction of temple in Jerusalem
+ 45 days later the Roman army withdrew from Jerusalem and went back to Rome.
=1335 days end of conflict
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#45
What a mish--mash of ideas on how to figure the 70 weeks. Think I've seen 70 ideas on it in various forums.
One truth sticks out.......that the 70 weeks do end at the destruction of the temple.......that was basically the end of the Jewish wars.
So let me get this straight.

Gabriel answers Danils prayer about askkng God to show mercy on Gods people and Gods holy city (jerusalem) which was currently enslaved and deoyed and left desolate, And Gabriels answer is that after 70 weeks. God will Destroy and make the people and city desolate again?

Sorry, but this makse absolutely no sense. And it is not even the purpose or words of What Gabriels said. He said at the end of 70 weeks. The sin of the people will have been brought to an end (completed) This means they will have repented. Not destroyed.


Daniel says "blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1335th day. So once again I give you this information...receive it or not.

70 weeks = 1290 days to destruction of temple in Jerusalem
+ 45 days later the Roman army withdrew from Jerusalem and went back to Rome.
=1335 days end of conflict
1. Your timing is wrong
2. Your concusion (about the purpose of the 70 weeks) is wrong
3. You conclusion is wrong.

The final week has not even begin yet, let alone The 1335th day. However, I do agree, The people who attain those days (jesus said endured) will be blessed.

I suggest you go back to the begining of chapter 9, and read and study all the whole passage, Because context of what is going on is so very important. And I think you are missing context.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
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#46
abomination of desolation...........IS the army of Rome (harmonize Matt 24 with Luke 21 on Olivet Discourse)

I know bible reading is considered cheating when one should only use the Hal Lindsey theory
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
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#47
Consider:
24.
“70 weeks had been decreed for your people (Jews) and your holy city.
( In Isaiah 45: 1-3, 13 the Lord gives the name of the one who would free them…CYRUS, who overthrew Babylon in October 539 BC. 42,360 Jews returned (Ezra 2:64) and the journey was completed from Babylon to Jerusalem by 535 BC…..EXACTLY 70 years from the year of their captivity in 605 BC)

This is Christ Jesus: verses 24 - 25
To finish the transgressions and sins and make atonement for their iniquity Jesus was wounded for our transgressions Is 53:5…and made an end of them……IT IS FINISHED Heb 9:15 Heb 9:26 Matt. 1:21 John 1:29
Bring in everlasting righteousness
Seal up visions and prophecies (He is the fulfillment of prophesy, we look for no other Messiah)

Annoint the Most Holy (Jesus Christ Luke 4: 18-22)

25 From the going forth of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (by Artaxerxes I in 457 BC, the 7th year of his reign, see Ezra 7: 12-26…….the first advent view of prophecy)
Until Messiah the Prince……shall be 69 weeks (483 years) (7 +62)….the street and even the wall will be built. (see Nehemiah) 457BC to 27AD is 483 years

AND after the 62 weeks Messiah will be cut off (the CROSS)

And the people of the prince who is to come (one of the Caesars, the use of the singular ‘prince’ signifies one Caesar in particular, but the Caesar reign en toto was opposed to any worship but Caesar worship.)
These people will destroy the city and the temple….the end coming with a flood ( of invaders) and there will be much desolation such as the Lord has determined (ordained) (“ the people” are the army of Caesar)

And HE ( Jesus Christ) shall confirm the covenant (the NEW COVENANT) with the MANY (the sheep of the Jewish nation are the MANY) for one week*; and in the midst of the week he is cut off. (a week signifies 7 in days,, months or years) (the ministry of Jesus Christ lasted 3 ½ years)………

Messiah is cut off in the middle of the 70th WEEK, or after 3 ½ years

Daniels 70th WEEK
one week …the first half Christ Himself sought the lost sheep of ISRAEL, then is cut off….the apostles continued this ministry to Israel for another 3 ½ years….
at which time the Jews were rejected and the gospel is preached to ALL tribes (Jews) and nations (Gentiles!)
to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles Romans 1:16
to you (the Jews) first Acts 3:25-26
(preached) to none but the Jews only Acts 8:4, 11:9, 13:46
the conversion of Cornelius marked the first gentile convert, SIGNIFYING that the gospel was to ALL and not just for the Jews. Cornelius’s conversion was approximately 3 ½ years after the cross. Reading the events in ACTS…it’s very possible that 3 ½ years passed before the conversion of Cornelius, completing the 70th week.


End of 70th week marks the rejection of Israel by God.

he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (the cross sealed the new covenant….the Lamb is sacrificed…once for all……the end of man’s offering for sin.
<This makes more sense in harmonizing the scriptures, that the 70th week follows the 69th week, than to SPECULATE that the 70th week will occur several HUNDRED YEARS after the 69th week……a position that pre-tribbers MUST take to make their theory fit these scriptures.> (or rather to make scripture fit THEIR speculations)

NOTE: the covenant prevailed with Daniel’s people for 7 years. It was not a matter of how long the covenant would last, but how long the covenant would be confirmed with Israel
Complete destruction…..the temple is destroyed forever in 70 AD (not one stone left upon another)
“the people of the prince”, does not mean they were God’s elect people, but that he put this in the hearts of men to do His will, making them His servants, His people, His work.
REFERENCE Jeremiah 6: 18-23; 34: 2, 22; 13: 9-27; Ez 24: 9, 21; Jeremiah 25: 8-11

MESSIAH is THE PRINCE throughout these verses
>On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
>Through the Caesar dynasty, the complete destruction of the temple is completed, …..and God then made desolate those who caused the destruction……..the Dynasty of the Caesars is destroyed.
>The Lord has done this many times in history,….caused the ungodly to come against Israel or to destroy the temple, ….then…..when His purpose is completed, He causes the ungodly to be punished for their deeds.
“ the Lord put it in their hearts to execute His will” and it is done. Revelation 17:17

NOTE: “make a covenant” is not true to the Hebrew word, GABAR (#1396 in Strong’s) which means to CONFIRM the covenant. Only Christ has the power to “covenant”
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#48
abomination of desolation...........IS the army of Rome (harmonize Matt 24 with Luke 21 on Olivet Discourse)

I know bible reading is considered cheating when one should only use the Hal Lindsey theory
Abomination of desolation

Look up history. Look up what it meant to the people to whome it was written. Or just look up the hebrew words to see what the defenitions are...

Abomination. An inclean thing, An idol,

9199 שִׁקּוּץ (šiq·qûṣ): n.masc.; ≡ Str 8251; TWOT 2459b—1. LN 53.33–53.40 vileness, i.e., a state of detestable uncleanness (Hos 9:10+); 2. LN 53.33–53.40 vile idol, i.e., an idol, and the pagan god which it represents, with a special focus of being an abominable, repulsive thing which causes covenantal uncleanness (Dt 29:16[EB 17]; 1Ki 11:5, 7; 2Ki 23:13,24; 2Ch 15:8; Isa 66:3; Jer 4:1; 7:30; 13:27; 16:18; 32:34; Eze 5:11; 7:20; 11:18, 21; 20:7, 8, 30; 37:23+), see also domain LN 6.96–6.101; 3. LN 53.33–53.40 filth, i.e., a vile object which can be thrown, and contact brings abhorrence and uncleanness (Na 3:6+); 4. LN 53.33–53.40 forbidden food, i.e., any of the food which cause uncleanness (Zec 9:7+), see also domain LN 5.1–5.22; 5. LN 53.33–53.40 unit: שִׁקּוּץ שָׁמֵם (šiq·qûṣ šā·mēm)1 abomination that causes desolation, a horrible thing which defiles, i.e., an object or event causing the vacating of a holy site (Da 9:27; 11:31; 12:11+)
שׁקט (šqṭ): see 9200

שִׁקּוּץ, שִׁקֻּץ: pl. שִׁקּוּצִים, cs. שִׁקּוּצֵי, sf. שִׁקּוּצֶיךָ, שִׁקּוּצֵיהֶם:—1. (pagan) abominable idol 2 K 23:24, of Milcom 1 K 11:5 &c.;—2. s.thg abominable (related to pagan cult) Na 3:6.

שִׁקֻּץ shiqqûts, shik-koots’; from 8262; disgusting, i.e. filthy; espec. idolatrous or (concr.) an idol:— abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

†שִׁקּוּץ S8251 TWOT2459b GK9199, שִׁקֻּץ S8263 TWOT2459b GK9211 n.m. Dn 11:31 detested thing;—abs. שִׁקּוּץ Dn 11:31; 12:11, cstr. שִׁקֻּץ 1 K 11:5 +; pl. שִׁקּוּצִים 2 Ch 15:8, שִׁקֻּצִים 2 K 23:24; cstr. שִׁקּוּצֵי Ez 20:7, 8; sf. שִׁקּוּצֵיהֶם Je 16:18 +, etc.—detested thing, epith. of Isr. Ho 9:10 (si vera l.; not elsewhere bef. Dt); of filth Na 3:6; appar. of unclean food Zc 9:7 (as שֶׁקֶץ); of idols (often || תּוֹעֵבָה, גִּלּוּל, etc.), Dt 29:16; 2 K 23:13, 24; Is 66:3; Je 4:1; 7:30 = 32:34; 13:27; 16:18; Ez 5:11; 7:20; 11:18, 21; 20:7, 8, 30; 37:23; of idolatrous practices Dn 9:27, but read prob. as 11:31 (so 𝔊 Θ), and כַּנּוֹ for כנף (v. Dr); שׁ׳ (םְ)שֹׁמֵם 11:31; 12:11 detested thing causing horror is the heathen altar erected in temple by Ant. Epiph., with (prob.) a statue of Zeus Olympios = (Ph.) בעלשמם lord of heaven; the prophet puts שִׁקּוּץ for בעל, and (םְ)שֹׁמֵם) for שָׁמַיִם; cf. Nes iv (1884), 248 Che 105 Dr Dn.

Here you see from multiple hebrew lexicons and sources that the word abominations or abominable means an Idol. And unclean thing, which makes the holy place unclean (ie unusable) we even have historical precidence when we see antiochus epiphanies commit this abomination by slaughering a pig in the Holy of Holies, also prophesied in Daniel. Which ended up causing the maccabean revolt.

However in this case, jesus himself said when you SEE the ABOMINATION spoken of by Daniel STANDING in the HOLY PLACE. Then something major is about to happen (in this case the great tribulation such as has never been seen on earth before. Nor will ever be seen after, So severe in fact, jesus himself will have to put an end to it, because if he did not all flesh would die.

No. The abomination was not the roman army in 70 AD. The roman army in 70 AD did what Gabriel said they would do. They DESTROYED the city and sanctuary, and left them desolate. That is NOT the abomination which makes a holy place or temple desolate (unlean). Thats total destruction by an army, which makes everything desolate.

You know bible reading is cheating? Lol.. Where do you think I get my believe from Hal Lindsey? HA HA HA.. Who do you get yours from? If you read the bible. I doubt you would get what you see.. You would see the abomination as what it is, not what some man told you.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#49
Consider:
24.
“70 weeks had been decreed for your people (Jews) and your holy city.
( In Isaiah 45: 1-3, 13 the Lord gives the name of the one who would free them…CYRUS, who overthrew Babylon in October 539 BC. 42,360 Jews returned (Ezra 2:64) and the journey was completed from Babylon to Jerusalem by 535 BC…..EXACTLY 70 years from the year of their captivity in 605 BC)

This is Christ Jesus: verses 24 - 25
To finish the transgressions and sins and make atonement for their iniquity
You can stop right here
1. The transgression and sins have not been finished, The people to whom the prophesy was given STILL REMAINED IN SIN, if fact they WERE DEFEATED, THEIR HOLY PLACES DESTROYED, and SCATTERED throughout the word BECAUSE THEY WERE STILL IN SIN.
2. If ISREAL ( the people to whom the prophesy was given to) is still in sin, then they have NOT FINISHED their TRANSGRESSION AND SIN.
3. Partial fulfillment does nto equal comtplete fulfillment, We do noot interpret prophesy this way, either it is COMPLETELY fullilled. Or it is STILL UNFINISHED< meaning it HAS NOT been fulfilled


Your problem and those who are with you is you do not realise the prayer was concerning Israel and Jerusalem. The fulfimment or answer to prayer MUST also be fulfilled WITH THESE things in context..

Your trying to REPLACE their place in the prophesy with the church (hence the term replacement theology) and this is an error and taking the bible completely out of context.

Thats a huge mistake and will ALWAYS lead to a false interpretation

Again, As I told you. Go back to the begining of the prophesy to find context. Your ignoreing the whole passage and trying to make a dictrine based on a few verses taken out of context.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#50
What a mish--mash of ideas on how to figure the 70 weeks. Think I've seen 70 ideas on it in various forums.
One truth sticks out.......that the 70 weeks do end at the destruction of the temple.......that was basically the end of the Jewish wars.
Daniel says "blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1335th day. So once again I give you this information...receive it or not.

70 weeks = 1290 days to destruction of temple in Jerusalem
+ 45 days later the Roman army withdrew from Jerusalem and went back to Rome.
=1335 days end of conflict
In my opinion if God had wanted us to understand Daniel from Josephus, he would have included his writings in the bible. :)
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#51
Abomination of desolation

Look up history. Look up what it meant to the people to whome it was written. Or just look up the hebrew words to see what the defenitions are...

Abomination. An inclean thing, An idol,

9199 שִׁקּוּץ (šiq·qûṣ): n.masc.; ≡ Str 8251; TWOT 2459b—1. LN 53.33–53.40 vileness, i.e., a state of detestable uncleanness (Hos 9:10+); 2. LN 53.33–53.40 vile idol, i.e., an idol, and the pagan god which it represents, with a special focus of being an abominable, repulsive thing which causes covenantal uncleanness (Dt 29:16[EB 17]; 1Ki 11:5, 7; 2Ki 23:13,24; 2Ch 15:8; Isa 66:3; Jer 4:1; 7:30; 13:27; 16:18; 32:34; Eze 5:11; 7:20; 11:18, 21; 20:7, 8, 30; 37:23+), see also domain LN 6.96–6.101; 3. LN 53.33–53.40 filth, i.e., a vile object which can be thrown, and contact brings abhorrence and uncleanness (Na 3:6+); 4. LN 53.33–53.40 forbidden food, i.e., any of the food which cause uncleanness (Zec 9:7+), see also domain LN 5.1–5.22; 5. LN 53.33–53.40 unit: שִׁקּוּץ שָׁמֵם (šiq·qûṣ šā·mēm)1 abomination that causes desolation, a horrible thing which defiles, i.e., an object or event causing the vacating of a holy site (Da 9:27; 11:31; 12:11+)
שׁקט (šqṭ): see 9200

שִׁקּוּץ, שִׁקֻּץ: pl. שִׁקּוּצִים, cs. שִׁקּוּצֵי, sf. שִׁקּוּצֶיךָ, שִׁקּוּצֵיהֶם:—1. (pagan) abominable idol 2 K 23:24, of Milcom 1 K 11:5 &c.;—2. s.thg abominable (related to pagan cult) Na 3:6.

שִׁקֻּץ shiqqûts, shik-koots’; from 8262; disgusting, i.e. filthy; espec. idolatrous or (concr.) an idol:— abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

†שִׁקּוּץ S8251 TWOT2459b GK9199, שִׁקֻּץ S8263 TWOT2459b GK9211 n.m. Dn 11:31 detested thing;—abs. שִׁקּוּץ Dn 11:31; 12:11, cstr. שִׁקֻּץ 1 K 11:5 +; pl. שִׁקּוּצִים 2 Ch 15:8, שִׁקֻּצִים 2 K 23:24; cstr. שִׁקּוּצֵי Ez 20:7, 8; sf. שִׁקּוּצֵיהֶם Je 16:18 +, etc.—detested thing, epith. of Isr. Ho 9:10 (si vera l.; not elsewhere bef. Dt); of filth Na 3:6; appar. of unclean food Zc 9:7 (as שֶׁקֶץ); of idols (often || תּוֹעֵבָה, גִּלּוּל, etc.), Dt 29:16; 2 K 23:13, 24; Is 66:3; Je 4:1; 7:30 = 32:34; 13:27; 16:18; Ez 5:11; 7:20; 11:18, 21; 20:7, 8, 30; 37:23; of idolatrous practices Dn 9:27, but read prob. as 11:31 (so 𝔊 Θ), and כַּנּוֹ for כנף (v. Dr); שׁ׳ (םְ)שֹׁמֵם 11:31; 12:11 detested thing causing horror is the heathen altar erected in temple by Ant. Epiph., with (prob.) a statue of Zeus Olympios = (Ph.) בעלשמם lord of heaven; the prophet puts שִׁקּוּץ for בעל, and (םְ)שֹׁמֵם) for שָׁמַיִם; cf. Nes iv (1884), 248 Che 105 Dr Dn.

Here you see from multiple hebrew lexicons and sources that the word abominations or abominable means an Idol. And unclean thing, which makes the holy place unclean (ie unusable) we even have historical precidence when we see antiochus epiphanies commit this abomination by slaughering a pig in the Holy of Holies, also prophesied in Daniel. Which ended up causing the maccabean revolt.

However in this case, jesus himself said when you SEE the ABOMINATION spoken of by Daniel STANDING in the HOLY PLACE. Then something major is about to happen (in this case the great tribulation such as has never been seen on earth before. Nor will ever be seen after, So severe in fact, jesus himself will have to put an end to it, because if he did not all flesh would die.

No. The abomination was not the roman army in 70 AD. The roman army in 70 AD did what Gabriel said they would do. They DESTROYED the city and sanctuary, and left them desolate. That is NOT the abomination which makes a holy place or temple desolate (unlean). Thats total destruction by an army, which makes everything desolate.

You know bible reading is cheating? Lol.. Where do you think I get my believe from Hal Lindsey? HA HA HA.. Who do you get yours from? If you read the bible. I doubt you would get what you see.. You would see the abomination as what it is, not what some man told you.
read the bible Matt 24 AND lUKE 21
YOUR STUBBORN HEART ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK SILLY
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#52
read the bible Matt 24 AND lUKE 21
YOUR STUBBORN HEART ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK SILLY
I did read it And if you read what I posted. You would know this,

Your ignoring what I said and just attacking or mocking me instead of showing where I was wrong in what I said, makes you look like you can not answer, and in the end makes you look bad.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#53
For those who are open.

Matt 24 and Luke 21 both speak of both the destruction of the city and temple (no stone will be left) and the abomination of desolation (when you see the abomination of desolation STANDING in the holy place) which are two seperate events, but in two different times, not only In daniel 9, But in matt 24 and Luke 21!

So those trying to tell me I am not reading what Jesus said, they are wrong.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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#54
In my opinion if God had wanted us to understand Daniel from Josephus, he would have included his writings in the bible. :)
So you only use the bible.......interesting.
Which means you have no clue about customs, history, geography or cults, among all the information we have been given on bible times.

Never read a lexicon or any commentaries?

I doubt if you have read any of Josephus or you would know that he was a Jewish historian traveling with the army of Rome and reported on events he witnessed.

I use everything, even Josephus, but my focus on what to study comes from the bible. When Revelation tells me about the 7 kings, I know which Caesar it is talking about.....because of HISTORY.

I thought better of you than that.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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#55
I did read it And if you read what I posted. You would know this,

Your ignoring what I said and just attacking or mocking me instead of showing where I was wrong in what I said, makes you look like you can not answer, and in the end makes you look bad.
If God can't show you error, I certainly cannot.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#56
If God can't show you error, I certainly cannot.
Thats your problem, You assume I am in error, Thats a dangerous place to be, it means you can not be taught

If you could prove I was in error. You could easily show it, Your continued slams against me just show you can’t

So in this case. Since you refuse to read anythign I posted. I will move on. Even further empowered by my faith.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#57
So you only use the bible.......interesting.
Which means you have no clue about customs, history, geography or cults, among all the information we have been given on bible times.

Never read a lexicon or any commentaries?

I doubt if you have read any of Josephus or you would know that he was a Jewish historian traveling with the army of Rome and reported on events he witnessed.

I use everything, even Josephus, but my focus on what to study comes from the bible. When Revelation tells me about the 7 kings, I know which Caesar it is talking about.....because of HISTORY.

I thought better of you than that.
1. Thanks for proving you did not read a thing I said.
2. As for using outsie sources, You asked if I read lexicons. I posted 4 or 5 lexicons in my post ( if you read them you would have known this)
As for commentaries. I have studied many commentaries, if you would like me to post a few which agree with my view, I can, But what would that prove? Anyone can find a well known commentator to agree with them, it means nothing.

Josephus? Is he going to show me the events of 70 AD were more severe and more of a tribulation to the world. Or even the middle east and europe than WW1 and or WW2 Of course not. Anyone wiht an open mind can see it was impossible for things in 70 ad to even approach the horrors and tribulationf of the 2 world wars in the 20th century. Plus they woudl know if they read Matt 24 and Luke 21. That this tribulation would be so severe that all flesh on earth would be threatened. How was this possible in 70 AD. Would Josephus show me how all life on earth was threatened in 70 AD? If so. Can you show mere where he said thus. Oh and Jesus also said it would end with his return. Did Josephus witness the return of Christ? And the destuction of the beast of rome by Jesu shimself?

You say you use everything, but you ingored the sources I used which PROVE what an abomination is. You ignored matt 24 and what Jesus himself said would happen.

You see unlike you. When I counter what you say, I give proof. I used the bible and lexicons And actually try to use reason. (Could this have happened in those days) and I also used historical reasoning (proper hermenuetics)

You just tell me I can not learn, or I should read things, and if I did I would see it your way, You can not even counter my sources, let alone show where I am wrong,

Again, Your strnegthening my arguments, not destroying them
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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#58
1. Thanks for proving you did not read a thing I said.
2. As for using outsie sources, You asked if I read lexicons. I posted 4 or 5 lexicons in my post ( if you read them you would have known this)
As for commentaries. I have studied many commentaries, if you would like me to post a few which agree with my view, I can, But what would that prove? Anyone can find a well known commentator to agree with them, it means nothing.


Josephus? Is he going to show me the events of 70 AD were more severe and more of a tribulation to the world. Or even the middle east and europe than WW1 and or WW2 Of course not. Anyone wiht an open mind can see it was impossible for things in 70 ad to even approach the horrors and tribulationf of the 2 world wars in the 20th century. Plus they woudl know if they read Matt 24 and Luke 21. That this tribulation would be so severe that all flesh on earth would be threatened. How was this possible in 70 AD. Would Josephus show me how all life on earth was threatened in 70 AD? If so. Can you show mere where he said thus. Oh and Jesus also said it would end with his return. Did Josephus witness the return of Christ? And the destuction of the beast of rome by Jesu shimself?

You say you use everything, but you ingored the sources I used which PROVE what an abomination is. You ignored matt 24 and what Jesus himself said would happen.

You see unlike you. When I counter what you say, I give proof. I used the bible and lexicons And actually try to use reason. (Could this have happened in those days) and I also used historical reasoning (proper hermenuetics)

You just tell me I can not learn, or I should read things, and if I did I would see it your way, You can not even counter my sources, let alone show where I am wrong,

Again, Your strnegthening my arguments, not destroying them
quit being so self-absorbed.......that post of mine that you quoted was not even directed at you.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#59
quit being so self-absorbed.......that post of mine that you quoted was not even directed at you.
Self absorbed?

I have the dude you responded to on Ignore.. So there was no way to determine that was not directed to me.

So who is self absorbed here?
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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#60
Self absorbed?

I have the dude you responded to on Ignore.. So there was no way to determine that was not directed to me.

So who is self absorbed here?
you are too funny.......as you can see, when replying to a quote, it begins with WHO it is addressed to