Not By Works

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GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Amen! In regards to John 15:1-6 (no loss of salvation here) I like how Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html
Do we all speak English on this thread?
You say John 15:1-6 does NOT speak about salvation??

Interesting. Instead of reading about what OTHERS think ( like the guy you mentioned) why not read for yourself since you will be judged on what YOU believed and not what some other guy convinced you was right so it could go along with your incorrect theology?

What do these words mean to YOU?:

John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

This is Jesus speaking. I'd rather believe HIM than the guy you mentioned up above.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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You find the truth boring? You don't understand what I said? :unsure:

I did not go against Jesus' own words and I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Anything about works salvation? NO. *Hermeneutics.
You "harmonize" to your own liking and satisfaction.

Take me up on my challenge....
Dcon won't because he knows he can't.
Can you?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
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Hi Bill,
I just got up an hour ago!
Can't believe it.
I think I get worn out by this thread!!
Actually, if you think I don't answer to verses, you SHOULD let me know.
I do my best to.

Anyway, better make some lunch.
Catch you later....
I wasn't referring to you.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,645
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Do we all speak English on this thread?
You say John 15:1-6 does NOT speak about salvation??

Interesting. Instead of reading about what OTHERS think ( like the guy you mentioned) why not read for yourself since you will be judged on what YOU believed and not what some other guy convinced you was right so it could go along with your incorrect theology?

What do these words mean to YOU?:

John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

This is Jesus speaking. I'd rather believe HIM than the guy you mentioned up above.
well, since you will not accept the meaning of " believe", maybe you should not be criticizing others on language...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,001
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Do we all speak English on this thread?
You say John 15:1-6 does NOT speak about salvation??
We all speak English and John 15:1-6 does not speak about losing salvation, although "on the surface" it may appear to.

Interesting. Instead of reading about what OTHERS think ( like the guy you mentioned) why not read for yourself since you will be judged on what YOU believed and not what some other guy convinced you was right so it could go along with your incorrect theology?

What do these words mean to YOU?:

John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. "

This is Jesus speaking. I'd rather believe HIM than the guy you mentioned up above.
It amazes how when you quote an interesting statement from a commentary, others will accuse you of not being able to think for yourself, yet iron sharpens iron. So what is the heart of the reason why people (like Judas Iscariot) did not abide in Jesus? Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). BTW the word "abide" is from the Greek word "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Now in regards to your question, I will share with you what those words in John 15:2-6 mean to me. The branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not believers (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

You "harmonize" to your own liking and satisfaction.
And that doesn't describe you? You have Jesus teaching salvation by works in the parable of the sheep and goats, yet you either ignore what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 or else try to "shoe horn" works into the definition of "believe" in order to accommodate your biased doctrine. You also have Jesus teaching a loss of salvation in John 15:2-6, in contradiction to what Jesus said in John 6:37 and John 10:27-29. *Hermeneutics. ;)
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
We all speak English and John 15:1-6 does not speak about losing salvation, although "on the surface" it may appear to.

It amazes how when you quote an interesting statement from a commentary, others will accuse you of not being able to think for yourself, yet iron sharpens iron. So what is the heart of the reason why people (like Judas Iscariot) did not abide in Jesus? Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). BTW the word "abide" is from the Greek word "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Now in regards to your question, I will share with you what those words in John 15:2-6 mean to me. The branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not believers (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

And that doesn't describe you? You have Jesus teaching salvation by works in the parable of the sheep and goats, yet you either ignore what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 or else try to "shoe horn" works into the definition of "believe" in order to accommodate your biased doctrine. You also have Jesus teaching a loss of salvation in John 15:2-6, in contradiction to what Jesus said in John 6:37 and John 10:27-29. *Hermeneutics. ;)

spot on brother....
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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well, since you will not accept the meaning of " believe", maybe you should not be criticizing others on language...
To believe in Christ unto salvation is to have faith in Christ, trust in Christ for salvation. It's simple, yet works-salvationists try to "shoe horn" works "into" the definition of believe/faith. Here is an example below in a statement made by a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Picking up our cross daily to follow him, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments, Doing the will of the Father etc..

Of course this statement above is absolutely false and demonstrates how Roman Catholicism comes to reach the erroneous conclusion that salvation is by works. :cautious: Faith is faith and works are works. Faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and works are the FRUIT.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
We all speak English and John 15:1-6 does not speak about losing salvation, although "on the surface" it may appear to.

It amazes how when you quote an interesting statement from a commentary, others will accuse you of not being able to think for yourself, yet iron sharpens iron. So what is the heart of the reason why people (like Judas Iscariot) did not abide in Jesus? Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). BTW the word "abide" is from the Greek word "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Now in regards to your question, I will share with you what those words in John 15:2-6 mean to me. The branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not believers (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

And that doesn't describe you? You have Jesus teaching salvation by works in the parable of the sheep and goats, yet you either ignore what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 or else try to "shoe horn" works into the definition of "believe" in order to accommodate your biased doctrine. You also have Jesus teaching a loss of salvation in John 15:2-6, in contradiction to what Jesus said in John 6:37 and John 10:27-29. *Hermeneutics. ;)
Wow. You DO love on the surface stuff don't you?
How about digging a little deeper?
I'll be free in about an hour or so...want to discuss?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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517
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To believe in Christ unto salvation is to have faith in Christ, trust in Christ for salvation. It's simple, yet works-salvationists try to "shoe horn" works "into" the definition of believe/faith. Here is an example below in a statement made by a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Picking up our cross daily to follow him, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments, Doing the will of the Father etc..

Of course this statement above is absolutely false and demonstrates how Roman Catholicism comes to reach the erroneous conclusion that salvation is by works. :cautious: Faith is faith and works are works. Faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and works are the FRUIT.
>Your quote above which I highlighted...

So...if we DO NOT have fruit....
we are not saved....

Didn't you just say this?

So what is the DIFFERENCE between what YOU just stated and what I state?
Be back later.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
To believe in Christ unto salvation is to have faith in Christ, trust in Christ for salvation. It's simple, yet works-salvationists try to "shoe horn" works "into" the definition of believe/faith. Here is an example below in a statement made by a Roman Catholic:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Picking up our cross daily to follow him, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments, Doing the will of the Father etc..

Of course this statement above is absolutely false and demonstrates how Roman Catholicism comes to reach the erroneous conclusion that salvation is by works. :cautious: Faith is faith and works are works. Faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and works are the FRUIT.
James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
DEAD...as in NOT living...of no use....not existing.

It's not the catholic church that said this....it's JAMES that said this,
not to mention Jesus and Paul.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
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I did dig much deeper and went well beyond on the surface stuff.
Be here a little later on.
The BIG point is that Jesus WAS speaking about salvation.

A branch that is CUT AWAY, left to DRY and then BURNED...
sounds pretty serious to me....

Later.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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>Your quote above which I highlighted...

So...if we DO NOT have fruit....
we are not saved....

Didn't you just say this?

So what is the DIFFERENCE between what YOU just stated and what I state?
Be back later.
Allow me to clarify. Faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and works are the FRUIT. (all genuine believers are fruitful, though not all are equally fruitful) No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :)
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,645
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Wow. You DO love on the surface stuff don't you?
How about digging a little deeper?
I'll be free in about an hour or so...want to discuss?
digging deep means " keep redefining words until they mean what fran says they mean ". right ?? right ??.


if you recall, you were " digging deep " when you got banned.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Be here a little later on.
The BIG point is that Jesus WAS speaking about salvation.

A branch that is CUT AWAY, left to DRY and then BURNED...
sounds pretty serious to me....

Later.
It was serious for Judas Iscariot who Jesus referred to as son of perdition! :eek:
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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digging deep means " keep redefining words until they mean what fran says they mean ". right ?? right ??.

if you recall, you were " digging deep " when you got banned.
The only thing that some people are digging is their hole deeper. :cautious:
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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the earth's crust is 18 miles thick on average, on land.

you can dig really really deep in one sense and still be relatively shallow by another measure

;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit He prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

hmm even the fruitful branch is trimmed. i don't exactly have a green thumb, but iirc the reason you cut off unfruitful branches is the same as pruning fruitful ones, to encourage the tree to grow new branches that produce fruit