Water Baptism-What Does God's Word Say?
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You're not giving me much to go on Sketch 
Even though I think the implication goes further, we can both agree it wasn't his primary calling. I'll omit the 'on hold' phraseology for arguments' sake.
It was God's purpose before the foundation of the world to do what he did. Jesus purposefully withheld from his disciples that the kingdom wasn't coming just yet, and even hid the meaning of the cross until the right time, and it was all part of his plan.
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Even though I think the implication goes further, we can both agree it wasn't his primary calling. I'll omit the 'on hold' phraseology for arguments' sake.
It was God's purpose before the foundation of the world to do what he did. Jesus purposefully withheld from his disciples that the kingdom wasn't coming just yet, and even hid the meaning of the cross until the right time, and it was all part of his plan.
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
D
The church has made "the Lord's supper" into a ritual, even an ordinance. I have so much to say with regards to this but I think I started a communion post on the website the other day. Yes, it's entitled "What about communion"
What I want you to see is that Paul isn’t talking about how to perform some solemn memorial of Christ’s death, and that’s what people read into his letter.
Summed up in my last statement:
Paul says you want to eat THIS bread and drink THIS cup, then examine yourselves, because you guys showing up to break some bread and drink some wine with you and your little groups is NOT what the Lord was showing his disciples at that supper. Jesus said my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink, so like you said, it’s about the living Word. Paul’s words here are actually refuting what people make this passage about.
What I want you to see is that Paul isn’t talking about how to perform some solemn memorial of Christ’s death, and that’s what people read into his letter.
Summed up in my last statement:
Paul says you want to eat THIS bread and drink THIS cup, then examine yourselves, because you guys showing up to break some bread and drink some wine with you and your little groups is NOT what the Lord was showing his disciples at that supper. Jesus said my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink, so like you said, it’s about the living Word. Paul’s words here are actually refuting what people make this passage about.
D
Sorry, I accidentally put this on one of your other comments. Perhaps you could delete mine from it.
The church has made "the Lord's supper" into a ritual, even an ordinance. I have so much to say with regards to this but I think I started a communion post on the website the other day. Yes, it's entitled "What about communion"
What I want you to see is that Paul isn’t talking about how to perform some solemn memorial of Christ’s death, and that’s what people read into his letter.
Summed up in my last statement:
Paul says you want to eat THIS bread and drink THIS cup, then examine yourselves, because you guys showing up to break some bread and drink some wine with you and your little groups is NOT what the Lord was showing his disciples at that supper. Jesus said my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink, so like you said, it’s about the living Word. Paul’s words here are actually refuting what people make this passage about.
RE
The church has made "the Lord's supper" into a ritual, even an ordinance. I have so much to say with regards to this but I think I started a communion post on the website the other day. Yes, it's entitled "What about communion"
What I want you to see is that Paul isn’t talking about how to perform some solemn memorial of Christ’s death, and that’s what people read into his letter.
Summed up in my last statement:
Paul says you want to eat THIS bread and drink THIS cup, then examine yourselves, because you guys showing up to break some bread and drink some wine with you and your little groups is NOT what the Lord was showing his disciples at that supper. Jesus said my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink, so like you said, it’s about the living Word. Paul’s words here are actually refuting what people make this passage about.
RE
If Paul thought one received the Holy Ghost when they believed he would not have asked disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed. They had not. He then questioned how they were water baptized. After evaluating the baptismal problem, Paul water baptized them in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid hands upon them and they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues:
Acts 19:1-6
"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Acts 19:1-6
"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
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D
Take note these "certain disciples" were ignorant of the situation here. The had knowledge of John's baptism of repentance and they believed John, but Paul made it clear they needed to believe on Christ Jesus, whom John was pointing to. Baptism functions to identify you with something... "unto what?" This was not so much a baptismal problem as it was a gospel problem. But these guys had no problem believing on the Lord Jesus. “not so much as heard” – Indeed, something got lost.
You're not giving me much to go on Sketch
Even though I think the implication goes further, we can both agree it wasn't his primary calling. I'll omit the 'on hold' phraseology for arguments' sake.
It was God's purpose before the foundation of the world to do what he did. Jesus purposefully withheld from his disciples that the kingdom wasn't coming just yet, and even hid the meaning of the cross until the right time, and it was all part of his plan.
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Even though I think the implication goes further, we can both agree it wasn't his primary calling. I'll omit the 'on hold' phraseology for arguments' sake.
It was God's purpose before the foundation of the world to do what he did. Jesus purposefully withheld from his disciples that the kingdom wasn't coming just yet, and even hid the meaning of the cross until the right time, and it was all part of his plan.
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Israel was broken off that we might be grafted in.
Romans 11:16-23
If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
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...back in the sandwich, nice, I might have to use that one.
I was trying not to post the entirety of Romans 11 for your sake, but Amen my friend. God's "firstborn" elect and peculiar nation crucified their Messiah, the very Son of God! Peter didn't know yet this was the best thing to happen ever.
1 Corinthians 2:7-8
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Israel's fall led to our salvation, but not just that, "if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" If you think this age is great, just wait for it.
Peter in Acts 3 said this,
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
This is a national call to repentance and conversion, and even though a remnant was saved, the times of refreshing have not come yet, but Paul ensures us that God's not through with Israel.
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
In my last post I was eager to get to the end of Romans 11.
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Indeed!
I was trying not to post the entirety of Romans 11 for your sake, but Amen my friend. God's "firstborn" elect and peculiar nation crucified their Messiah, the very Son of God! Peter didn't know yet this was the best thing to happen ever.
1 Corinthians 2:7-8
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Israel's fall led to our salvation, but not just that, "if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" If you think this age is great, just wait for it.
Peter in Acts 3 said this,
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
This is a national call to repentance and conversion, and even though a remnant was saved, the times of refreshing have not come yet, but Paul ensures us that God's not through with Israel.
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
In my last post I was eager to get to the end of Romans 11.
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Indeed!
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Lanolin, there's a bunch of things Paul did in Acts that I'm not even going to try and do.
He imparted the Holy Ghost to someone by touching
For most of my Christian life I believed in a “pre-trib” rapture and defended it with passion, because after all, from a dispensational viewpoint it’s easy to the church is raptured our so Israel’s timeclock can start ticking again... i have somewhat recently accepted the fact there’s no way we can be dogmatic about this.
The rapture will happen, it’s the timing that’s debated. Long argument short, this event is too significant not to be fulfilled beginning with the next of three appointed feast times.
Feast of Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles.
My best scriptural approach to the timing of the ‘catching away’ of those who are alive and remain is most certainly the feast of trumpets, which by the way, is the ONLY feast dependent on sighting the new moon for it’s timing. Therefore it’s the only feast that “can’t know the nor hour”. Very little is said of this one in the OT but Paul listed the new moon as one of those things that are shadows of things to come.
This baptism thread is going to around the block
He imparted the Holy Ghost to someone by touching
For most of my Christian life I believed in a “pre-trib” rapture and defended it with passion, because after all, from a dispensational viewpoint it’s easy to the church is raptured our so Israel’s timeclock can start ticking again... i have somewhat recently accepted the fact there’s no way we can be dogmatic about this.
The rapture will happen, it’s the timing that’s debated. Long argument short, this event is too significant not to be fulfilled beginning with the next of three appointed feast times.
Feast of Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles.
My best scriptural approach to the timing of the ‘catching away’ of those who are alive and remain is most certainly the feast of trumpets, which by the way, is the ONLY feast dependent on sighting the new moon for it’s timing. Therefore it’s the only feast that “can’t know the nor hour”. Very little is said of this one in the OT but Paul listed the new moon as one of those things that are shadows of things to come.
This baptism thread is going to around the block
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Um can I say something here, is it because some churches do water baptism of infants (called christening) and confuse that with what baptism is shown to be in the Bible. Because in the Bible its commands people to repent and be baptised for remission of sins.
Babies dont repent as they dont even know what sin is or what right or wrong is yet.
I had this issue with the man I invited to be baptised and he said he already had as a baby??? So he didnt want to do it again. But if hed been water baptised as a baby...what is that supposed to mean?
In the Bible, I dont recall babies being baptised. If that counts, then would you just say you need to be baptised in the holy spirit. Because I notice that those whove been baptised as babies wouldnt have repented and believed, it was just something their parents made them do.
Babies dont repent as they dont even know what sin is or what right or wrong is yet.
I had this issue with the man I invited to be baptised and he said he already had as a baby??? So he didnt want to do it again. But if hed been water baptised as a baby...what is that supposed to mean?
In the Bible, I dont recall babies being baptised. If that counts, then would you just say you need to be baptised in the holy spirit. Because I notice that those whove been baptised as babies wouldnt have repented and believed, it was just something their parents made them do.
Depends what church you go to.
If its catholic, well...they believe something totally different.
When people say oh the church has made it into a ritual...what church are they talking about?? With baptism, some churches have made it meaningless and go against scripture in performing it so it becomes something else, yet still call it baptism.
If its catholic, well...they believe something totally different.
When people say oh the church has made it into a ritual...what church are they talking about?? With baptism, some churches have made it meaningless and go against scripture in performing it so it becomes something else, yet still call it baptism.
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Paul's initial question was "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?" If Paul understood that one received the Holy Ghost as soon as they believed, he would not have questioned the disciples.
Acts 19:1
"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"
Acts 19:1
"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"
D
We only have part of their conversation. Paul recognizes they are disciples, and part of their conversation must have mentioned baptism. Paul picks up on this and I think he is assuming at this point they were baptized unto Jesus, so what they responded with indicated their ignorance. When they replied they’ve never heard whether there is such a thing as the Holy Ghost, Paul digs further into the baptism. “Unto what” then were you baptized? He then proceeds to clue them in on who John was pointing to.
I think this example shows that the gospel needs to be fully understood as to WHO it is all about.
For example, lots of people could say they became a christian because Billy Graham told them to. But thats not what the gospel is about. The gospel has nothing to do with Billy graham. Its also like how the corninthans were not understanding and thinking 'im of Paul' and 'im of apollos' according to who told them. Or they were baptised by John , cos John happened to baptise them. But thats missing the point too.
Its like how some people say 'im a calvinist' or 'im a catholic' or 'i'm a jew' and they dont understand that all those names are man, they are not in the mighty name of Jesus.
For example, lots of people could say they became a christian because Billy Graham told them to. But thats not what the gospel is about. The gospel has nothing to do with Billy graham. Its also like how the corninthans were not understanding and thinking 'im of Paul' and 'im of apollos' according to who told them. Or they were baptised by John , cos John happened to baptise them. But thats missing the point too.
Its like how some people say 'im a calvinist' or 'im a catholic' or 'i'm a jew' and they dont understand that all those names are man, they are not in the mighty name of Jesus.