Are there two gospels or ONE?

Signs and miracles are for unbelieving Jews. We walk by faith not by sight.

You’re denying the plain text.

Here i am defending James as the word of God.

Others need it neutered.

They need it to be.

Ch 2 says believers in Jesus Christ.

Now you know why James offends them. No salvation doctrine of " paul"

As if the other apostles did not know Jesus died,was buried.and arose.

Jesus healed Gentiles.
Did they need a sign too?

I bet you know every verse disenfranchising the power of God right?

But none of the myriad of verses for healing right?

Hmmm. Are all pauline adherants cessationists?

The guy in our mens bible class also mocks the power of God

Even when the verses are posted you neuter them.

Paul himself got saved outside the pauline gospel.

I tell you what is happening.
They put a prayer and methodology above the savior.
Salvation is a person,not a doctrine

The real question is, "When did they understand that message?" They definitely did not understand that before the Crucifixion.

And in Acts of the Apostle, when they preach that message to the Jews, did they tell them to believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead for their justification?

Or was it the same message as in the 4 Gospels, "Repent from your unbelief and now believe that Jesus is the Son of God and your Messiah, and he will return to Earth to rule as your King" (Acts 3:19-20)

When we preached Paul's Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles, which message do we use?

The real question is when any of us understood this,,Is it that Jesus saved us on the cross or were we saved at some point from our birth until now? Should we credit our salvation to the cross or at some point in our lives when we said we were?

Jesus and the apostles preached grace.
It did not originate with Paul.

Jesus understood the gospel before and after the crucifixion.
The gospels are the new testament

Exactly.
Its like the chicken and the egg.

The work or price was at the cross. Stepping in on our part came at a point in our lives.
The best decision i ever made.

If you believed 12 disciples also preached the gospel of grace in the 4 gospels, let's test that hypothesis by taking a look at 2 passages from Luke.

First, lets look at Luke 9:6.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

This passage clearly states that the 12 were "preaching the gospel". But what gospel did they preach? Was it the same as what Paul said in 1 Cor? It was later on in Luke 18:33-34 that we found out

33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.” 34 But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.

So the simple point is, "how could the Disciples be teaching Paul’s gospel of grace– the death, burial and resurrection (I Corinthians 15:1-4) if they didn’t know about the death, burial and resurrection?"

The 12 were teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. The 12 were not wrong. They were doing what they had been told to do. They didn’t have to understand the divine exchange, all they need to do was to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.

And some are thirsty and hungry, they hold their hands out and see them empty and ask God to fill them when they are full. All who beg for salvation and seek after it deny it from the cross in their works . Some might ask you if you have been saved yet and set out to act as this replacement Savior for them who are weak, while only few will show it was at the cross and explain it.

The early prophesies spoke of a coming Messiah. Some descriptive passages speak of His purpose.

It would seem to me that if someone accepted, by faith, that God would indeed make a way for this Messiah to “save” His people, then that would be faith enough.

Here is an excellent summation of that thread that runs through the entire O.T. , from an old Ungers book;


The Messianic Idea The OT messianic revelation appears not merely in particular predictions. The whole of the OT is rather to be looked upon as bearing a prophetic character. The idea underlying the whole development of these Scriptures and the life dealt with therein is that of God's gracious manifestation of Himself to men and the establishment of His kingdom on the earth. This idea becomes more and more distinct and centralizes itself more and more fully in the Person of the coming King, the Messiah. The creation and Fall of man and the growing sinfulness of the race make clear the need for deliverance. The preservation of a part of mankind from the Flood, and the continuance of human history, have great suggestion of promise. The call of Abraham, with the promise “in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed” revealed the divine purpose, which had been previously indicated, yet more distinctly (see Ge 22:18; cf. 12:3; 9:26; 3:15). The founding of the Jewish nation, its theocratic character, its institutions, its ritual, and its history all center on this one idea. The sinfulness of sin, the possibility of a divinely appointed method of deliverance from sin, and the realization of a kingdom of righteousness lie at the very basis of the Jewish economy. Moreover, the chosen nation bore its peculiar character not merely for its own sake, but also for the sake of the world. Upon condition of fidelity to the covenant the promise was given: “You shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Ex 19:6). The devout wish of Moses was significant also in the same direction, “Would that all the Lord's people were prophets” (Nu 11:29). But the highest glory of Israel was that from the nation One was to come in whom these noble relations to God and man, only to a large extent symbolized by the nation itself, should be perfectly fulfilled. The actual “Son” and “Servant” of God, the true Prophet, Priest, and King, was to be the Messiah. This is the key to the whole body of the OT Scriptures.

We, of the “New Covenant”, look back and believe by faith, that He did send that Messiah/Savior and that His ultimate promise will also be fulfilled. That to me is the simple gospel, which was declared In the N.T. with more detail, that God did make a way for man to be reconciled, to be at peace with God.

Unless you are a Jew, I would strongly recommend you follow what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If you as a Gentile, confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the promised Messiah and stop there, I think you will "probably" still be saved though. But then, why take chances?

Notice what the Apostles said in early Acts about the cross, before Paul was called to preach the Gospel of Grace. Jesus’s death and resurrection were used by Peter, not to illustrate the divine exchange as Paul did, but as the final proof that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, the promised Messiah. In fact, not only did Peter not preach the divine exchange aspect of Jesus’s crucifixion on the cross, I notice one constant theme he hammered to his Jewish listeners was that they were responsible for crucifying Jesus.

Acts 2:36, where Peter says, "... Jesus, whom ye crucified ...." Peter also says in Acts 3:14-15, "But ye denied the Holy One ... and killed the Prince of life ...." Then in Acts 5:30 he says, "... Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Finally Stephen, who also preached Peter's gospel, told the Jews in Acts 7:52, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers ...."

My point is that, until the conversion of Saul/Paul, the crucifixion had been pointed out by the 12 apostles to their intended audience, the Jews, as something to be ashamed of and repented of.

Only after the ascended Jesus revealed the mystery of the gospel of grace to Paul (Ephesians 3:3-5), then all of us Gentile Christians, together with Paul, can look back to the crucifixion and cry: "He loved me and gave Himself for me!" Jesus was not murdered, instead he laid down his life for ME.

Indeed, the follow non-exhaustive list of verses written by Paul that testified to the importance of the cross in the divine exchange is as follows

Romans 3:25 (NLT) For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past

1 Corinthians 1:18 New Living Translation (NLT) 18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

Galatians 6:4 New Living Translation (NLT) As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:20 (NASB) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Colossians 2:14 (NIRV) He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross.

Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If a Gentile was healed it was a sign to the Jews.

You are still dodging the question. Every time elders pray over the sick, is the sick person healed? If not, then either the book of James is lying or that doctrine is not Church Age doctrine. Which is it?

Mocking? Come on brother, don’t go there. I’m simply trying to show you that we must rightly divide the word of truth or we can make a mess of the Scripture.

Verses please from the 4 gospels. Thanks.