God LIED!

And who made you God and able to judge any mans salvation.

I would sick with giving the gospel and stop worrying about whether a person has fruit or not, Thats Gods job.

I think we are to look at people and see what kind of fruit they display.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

There is a lot of truth and wisdom in this. I need to do that more too, and for the record I don't believe he has judged anyone's salvation, only proclaimed the truth that the saved will bare fruit. I agree with him.

How much fruit, that seems to be the issue at hand.

We all agree they will bear fruit, but we maynot see or even understand what they fruit is, so we couod,think they are not saved when they are.

Thats why i hate the argument,

Brother 1st Corinthians 3.......

a. Believer a has works of Gold, silver and precious stones that get tried by fire and purified
b. Believer b has work of wood, hay and stubble that get tried by fire and burnt to a crisp yet they are saved so as by fire

You can say they have works left, but there is zero indication that is true and every piece of wood, hay and stubble I have ever laid fire to is BURNT to ashes with NOTHING left....

The bible is right, the comparison is clear and common sense and proven knowledge proves that NOTHING is left of WOOD hay and stubble when they GET burnt up in a fire....

To be honest, I am surprised you are arguing against this.......

Who am I judging or fruit inspecting? I am just saying what God's Word says.

I'm not judging anyone's salvation or worrying about whether you or anyone else has fruit or not. I'm just saying what the Bible says.

Fruit bearing must be important seeing Jesus talked about it so much.

So is that all you have, eternally grateful. Did you ever get your exegesis on the prodigal son straightened out? Your "when did the prodigal stop being a son" ignore the context question shows how you and others handle God's Word.

I will ask you what I asked Dcontroversial. Who do the two sons in Matthew 21:28-32 represent? And then I will turn your question around on you. Is your question relevant and valid for THEM (the two sons in Matthew 21:28-32) Think about it and let me know.;

If it is valid, answer the same question for them that you asked me for the prodigal.

In other words, for you and DControversial, who ask

"when did the prodigal son stop being a son"?,

Why don't you ask "when did the UNBELIEVING chief priests and Saducees, (whom the first son in the parable of the two sons in Matthew 21:28-32 represents) stop being a son?

Do you see how absurd that question is? That is how absurd it is to ask when did the prodigal son stop being a son. Jesus is using the prodigal son to answer the grumbling of the scribes and pharisess in Luke 15, when they were grumbling about the publicans and sinners coming to Jesus.

Oh, but it couldn't represent sinners, because he was called a son. But the first son in the two sons parable in Matthew 21 is the unbelieving religious leaders and the second was the publicans and sinners. Did you ever stop to think about that?

Y'all need to be more careful in your exegesis

Unless you guys have something based on sound interpretation, I won't bother anymore.

My point is NEVER to judge someone else's salvation, but to examine ourselves as Paul taught. I never said anything about judging other people. But we can examine ourselves, that is why I used verses like "by this WE KNOW that we are..." etc. Not by this we know so and so are..."

The Christian life is always a life of self examination and repentance. That is what I was getting at.

I never argued against this...


No evidences other than faith? You mean dead faith?

I'm sorry you don't like me quoting the apostles James and John's theology. Luther didnt like James much either. Because he misunderstood him, as you misunderstand.

Except when I said the same thing. Then you decided to argue with me on that simple point.

Yes, what a terrible tragedy that is when God's will is not done in the life of a believer. But you argued with me about the simple matter of bearing fruit. I never said how much fruit. I just said they would bear fruit. Jesus said in the parable of the sower that there where would be various degrees of increase from the seed on the good soil

Yes the embellished doctrine that believers with living faith engrafted into Jesus will bear fruit, love God, love their neighbor, etc is a HORRIBLE and EMBELLISHED doctrine. Shame on me and burn me at the stake.

What they are preaching in their false gospel of "no evidence!" is the teaching that came out of Dallas Theological Seminary via Chafer, Ryrie, Hodges and Stanley among others.

It's a false gospel message and is relatively new but is nothing less than repackaged Antinomianism.

There is also a huge difference between going on to maturity, and not, and the former is evidence of conversion, the latter is not evidence of conversion as the writer of Hebrews states he expects things from them that accompany salvation; Hebrews 6:9-12. But this shouldn't be surprising when the DTS gospel denies the necessity of repentance, among other huge issues.

People (not you) are arguing on here really really hard for a gospel that doesn't transform and for mere believe-ism that saves exactly no one! Nothing I've stated is toward you Macabeus, just expounding on what is being taught here in defense of the one true Gospel.

And yet again, you preach a works based salvation. One that is dependent on what you accomplish - not on what Christ accomplished. You give lip service to the Holy Spirit while placing the burden of law-based works upon believers. Your gospel is one where you share the glory of your salvation with Jesus based upon your performance. Yet your ilk can never tell us how much/many good works are sufficient to "prove" one is saved.

Paul called your kind out in scripture - you are a Judaizer.

And yes, belief is all that is required for salvation. Not your belief/works hodgepodge.

If we aren’t suppose to keep the Commandments of God (Yahweh) then why this passage in revelation? I would like to hear what you point of view is:

Revelation 22:12-16 (NKJV) 12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, [the] Beginning and [the] End, the First and the Last." 14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

Again, you fail to recognize the difference between WHAT WE DO and WHAT CHRIST DOES. The work is HIS. WE are not talking about our own works. We are talking about Christ's work in us. He is the Vine, we are the branches. He produces the fruit.


For example, if one believes in the perserverance of the saints, he or she is not saying that we need to try REAL HARD to keep or retain our salvation, or we need to need to maintain a certain number of good works to be or remain saved. That is a gross misrepresentation of the doctrine. Perserverance of the saints teaches that true faith perserveres. If it does not perservere, it is not true faith.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

It is possible to profess to know God and deny Him in what we do.

Titus 1:16-They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

As far as good works, we do not teach that good works bring salvation. Rather, we teach that salvation is meant to bring good works.

Ephesians 2:10- For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Workmanship is the greek word "poiema" where we get the word "poem" from. God is writing a poem with our lives, and He is going to finish the poem He is writing.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 1 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Titus 3:8- This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Not good works to be saved or stay saved. Good works BECAUSE we are saved.

By your definition, Paul was a Judaizer. Paul was no Judaizer, Budman, and neither is preacher 4 truth.

The question of "how much degree, quality, and current visibility there must be to obedience, or how many good works is enough, or how much fruit bearing is enough COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, because we do not assert it is good works, fruit bearing, or anything else of that sort that saves us. It God's Grace that saves us through faith. So it is not a quota put on us, that we have to meet a certain quota of fruit or good works. That is a strawman.

We assert the texts above and many others that we are saved by Grace through faith alone, but that faith does not exist in a vacuum.

dcontroversal - its really great that you are assuring others of their salvation. I will also be happy when i have to tell someone about the gospel that if they believe in Jesus they are saved and that's it , the end , no need to add or subtract anything from that. It is finished...instead of saying - "Hey , Jesus died for you BUT...hmm...you are on your own now...figure out how to get entry into heaven ...because it seems even if u believe in Him as Jesus asked us to...it seems.. the righteous are scarcely saved.....and i don't know the definition of righteous either..uhh..uhh uhhh...."black out.. ...load burden on others and never pick a single load myself.
BUT
I would really be happy if i could learn from Jesus how to live like Him...and have all the joy and peace only He can give. I would be happy to live a life with all burdens loaded on His shoulders ...satisfied , knowing what am doing and having purpose in every action , everything i do and to feel His presence with me 24 hrs and to have a relationship with Him....to be in His reality...to surrender each move and day completely to Him and let Him be on the driver's seat and me sitting behind watching what He does through my body...to have all the fantastic joy that He can give...heavenly , pure , that quenches the thirst within me.....that ends my search ... that makes me wanna pull others to show them - HIM.....to see astonishment in their faces...to see how God changes lives....the abundant life!....the true meaning....Abba Father...I love You ...I love You .....

So your saying you believe the prodigal was a son, stopped being a son (lost salvation) then was restored?

Just asking for confirmation, again, if the son died in a prodigal state, would he have been his fathers son, or cast out to eternal darkness?

They were never the sons.. lolol

And ps, i speak from experience, I WAS A PRODIGAL SON FOR 5 years, would i have been lost if i died inthat state?

Yeah and satan wants to tear you down, he walks like a lion seeking who he may devour, and if you struggle, Or are at a state in your life when you are not producing or strugglimg with some sin issue, he wants to convince you that you are not Gods child

Thats why legalism is dangerous and the last thing a child of god needs to think about at that time,

What he needs to remember is John when joh said to remember the fact we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and as scripture says nothing can seperate us from the love of God. Otherwise he will most likely wash out like so many fruit inspectors have done