John Wesley/Methodist view on the thief on the cross

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PennEd

PennEd

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#21
Apr 22, 2013
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#21
SIMON55 said:
Yiu are just insistent on arguing with someone who agrees with you and ignoring what they have told you that you admit not even reading and admit confounding to
Even after I have testified being saved by grace alone and no works of my own.
So I am done with it.
You stab it with all the confounding that justifies yourself.
I WAS A SINNER AND SAVED BY GODS GOOD GRACE AND HIS GOOD WORKINGS NOT MINE.....
OR....by any church religion or confounding of understanding of man.
I HAVE SEEN GOD IN ACTION WORKING GRACE.
If you think you can confound it with anything you would be mistaken.
Click to expand...
Have a great day! I'm glad we both agree that faith is a GIFT from God, and not from ourselves.

Now go work out that gift of faith God gave you!
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#22
Apr 22, 2013
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#22
John146 said:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. One hears the word of God. One believes the word of God. The faith of Christ is given after one hears and believes. Galatians 2:16.
Click to expand...
Agree. Our faith that GOD GAVE US as a gift, is activated by our hearing the Word.
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#23
PennEd said:
I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong.
And if it were not wrong, where does YOUR faith come from if not a gift from God? Do you muster it up out of your own heart?

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THAT not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We have been saved by Grace with faith being activated by the hearing of the Word. RIGHT THERE it says the faith is a gift of God, and the reason it is a Gift, and NOT a work, is so people CAN'T boast about how they mustered up faith themselves.

This is from Ligonier Website, and it is absolutely true.
If we believe that we are capable of working up faith in our souls, we cannot boast in Christ alone. But if we understand that we have faith only because of the work of the Holy Spirit, then we can truly give God all the glory for our salvation. We are not to look at ourselves as better than others because we believe the gospel; rather, we are to be profoundly grateful that God has chosen to grant us faith even though we are undeserving sinners.
Click to expand...
What's WRONG IS YOUR COMPREHENSION AND TWISTING OF MY WORDS!😀
My saving Grace wasn't activated by hearing the
word.....
My saving grace was activated by faithful prayer of my own....there was nobody standing over me reading scripture I wasn't reading the word or attending church.
You are trying to limit the POWER OF GOD !
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#24
Apr 22, 2013
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#24
SIMON55 said:
What's WRONG IS YOUR COMPREHENSION AND TWISTING OF MY WORDS!😀
My saving Grace wasn't activated by hearing the
word.....
My saving grace was activated by faithful prayer of my own....there was nobody standing over me reading scripture I wasn't reading the word or attending church.
You are trying to limit the POWER OF GOD !
Click to expand...
Ah! My bad. I hoping you didn't want to boast about how you musteted up the faith to believe all on your own.
Carry on.
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#25
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#25
PennEd said:
Have a great day! I'm glad we both agree that faith is a GIFT from God, and not from ourselves.

Now go work out that gift of faith God gave you!
Click to expand...
You don't understand the scripture you posted....
GRACE IS THE GIFT!
Faith is the result in believing in the GIFT OF GRACE
Belief isnt faith until you start working at practicing faith .
SATAN BELIEVES .....
AND HAS HEARD THE WORD
Do you think he has FAITH
That if he repents he will be saved by the GIFT OF GRACE?
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#26
#26
All the work of salvation is done by God himself.
The work of Jesus and his ministry, and his work of self sacrifice execution on the cross and resurrection.
The work of the Holy Spirit in the regenerate man. All the good works we see from a man is from the Holy Spirit, which are evidence of salvation, but not salvation it self.
So a re- examination of the fellow on the cross, shows faith granted by the Holy spirit resulting in repentance, and a work of the repented and regenerate man evidenced by another work of the the Holy Spirit, in the rebuke of the other criminal on the cross there along side.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#27
Apr 22, 2013
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#27
No.
SIMON55 said:
You don't understand the scripture you posted....
GRACE IS THE GIFT!
Faith is the result in believing in the GIFT OF GRACE
Belief isnt faith until you start working at practicing faith .
SATAN BELIEVES .....
AND HAS HEARD THE WORD
Do you think he has FAITH
That if he repents he will be saved by the GIFT OF GRACE?
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure I got you.

You want to take credit and work for Salvation. I don't.

I want to give Jesus ALL the credit, and love Him for ALL HE HAS DONE.

I'll try one more time.

Where did the faith cone from that you believe?
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#28
PennEd said:
Have a great day! I'm glad we both agree that faith is a GIFT from God, and not from ourselves.

Now go work out that gift of faith God gave you!
Click to expand...
You don't seem to understand .....I said I was praying
NOT PRAYING TO MYSELF...
I was praying to be kept sober.....not to understand his word that I heard at church or somewhere 15 yrs earlier....
I didn't even believe in myself enough to believe I deserved him to answer my prayers.BUT BY HIS GOOD SAVING GLORIOUS GRACE HE DID.....
SO......unless you believe the word of God is the books of Alcoholics Anonymous. ...
Then I wasn't hearing his word....and his GRACE kept me sober....9-nine months and then he healed me.....
But that wasnt your path so you wrongly believe you have to hear his word.
God never spoke I never heard his word .....I acted and I spoke to him....he acted and kept me sober I gained Faith by seeing that he did.....
His saving GRACE came and Healed.....without a word only actions my faith came by seeing not hearing.
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#29
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#29
PennEd said:
No.

I'm pretty sure I got you.

You want to take credit and work for Salvation. I don't.

I want to give Jesus ALL the credit, and love Him for ALL HE HAS DONE.

I'll try one more time.

Where did the faith cone from that you believe?
Click to expand...
NO YOU GOT YOUR OWN FABRICATED LIES BY TWISTING MY WORD IS WHAT YOU Got.......I GIVE ALL GLORY TO GOD AND HIS GOOD GRACE!
You are a Satan twister of words that just wants to argue. with someone that agreed with you.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#30
Apr 22, 2013
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#30
SIMON55 said:
NO YOU GOT YOUR OWN FABRICATED LIES BY TWISTING MY WORD IS WHAT YOU Got.......I GIVE ALL GLORY TO GOD AND HIS GOOD GRACE!
You are a Satan twister of words that just wants to argue. with someone that agreed with you.
Click to expand...
I don't think we agree.

My faith comes from the Lord. This is an important point. Your posts are all about what YOU did and do.

BTW, why are you labeling yourself a caucasion? First off, I think we can all see that, ( Cool hairdo! you look like a Viking!) secondly, it's a little weird to put that in your profile.

But I digress. Where does YOUR faith come from?

Why do some hear and NOT believe, while others hear and DO believe? WHERE does YOUR faith come from?
 
AgapeShellArt

AgapeShellArt

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#31
Nov 21, 2018
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Firstly, I attend a Methodist Church and not that many people have read Wesley.

I agree for the most part with your analysis with the exception that works is needed for salvation.

I can't speak for Wesley and what he meant by his words, but I believe he did preach incorrectly until Aldergate when his heart was strangely warmed and he realized that it was faith alone that saves.

We are called yo do good works but I don't think that is tied to our justification or salvation but a result of salvation. We work because we have already been cleansed and justified. It's part of our sanctification.

Guojing said:
It appears that the Methodists believe that while salvation is by grace thru faith, you need to show works as proof that your faith is indeed genuine.

In my opinion, if one holds the view that salvation is free but sanctification is a work that we do, you have to have a suitable answer to the "thief on the cross". Jesus granted salvation to the thief but he clearly had no opportunity to perform any works to show that the faith he had was truly genuine and saving.

Here, John Wesley made a rather ingenious point in my opinion,

"But does not God command us to repent also? Yea, and to 'bring forth fruits meet for repentance'--to cease, for instance, from doing evil, and learn to do well? And is not both the one and the other of the utmost necessity, insomuch that if we willingly neglect either, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all? But if this be so, how can it be said that faith is the only condition of justification?" God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification. But they are not necessary in the same sense with faith, nor in the same degree. Not in the same degree; for those fruits are only necessary conditionally; if there be time and opportunity for them. Otherwise a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible. Likewise, let a man have ever so much repentance, or ever so many of the fruits meet for repentance, yet all this does not at all avail; he is not justified till he believes.

How John Wesley reconciled the thief on the cross, in my opinion, is based on this paragraph. Here is how I understand his argument:
  1. Both faith and works are necessary for justification.
  2. But faith is more necessary compared to works. Faith is necessary unconditionally/absolutely.
  3. Works are only necessary in a conditional sense, provided there is time and opportunity to do them.
  4. The thief on the cross had neither the time, nor the opportunity to do works, so he is excused from them.
  5. For the rest of us however, we do not have that excuse, so works become necessary for our justification.
This is a rather ingenious argument, I have to say. So, after examining John Wesley’s views, I can conclude that the Methodists believe that Jesus’s work on the cross grant all believers the garment of salvation but to be righteous, there is some dependence on human effort.

What do the rest think? Any Methodists in the house?
Click to expand...
Guojing said:
It appears that the Methodists believe that while salvation is by grace thru faith, you need to show works as proof that your faith is indeed genuine.

In my opinion, if one holds the view that salvation is free but sanctification is a work that we do, you have to have a suitable answer to the "thief on the cross". Jesus granted salvation to the thief but he clearly had no opportunity to perform any works to show that the faith he had was truly genuine and saving.

Here, John Wesley made a rather ingenious point in my opinion,

"But does not God command us to repent also? Yea, and to 'bring forth fruits meet for repentance'--to cease, for instance, from doing evil, and learn to do well? And is not both the one and the other of the utmost necessity, insomuch that if we willingly neglect either, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all? But if this be so, how can it be said that faith is the only condition of justification?" God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification. But they are not necessary in the same sense with faith, nor in the same degree. Not in the same degree; for those fruits are only necessary conditionally; if there be time and opportunity for them. Otherwise a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible. Likewise, let a man have ever so much repentance, or ever so many of the fruits meet for repentance, yet all this does not at all avail; he is not justified till he believes.

How John Wesley reconciled the thief on the cross, in my opinion, is based on this paragraph. Here is how I understand his argument:
  1. Both faith and works are necessary for justification.
  2. But faith is more necessary compared to works. Faith is necessary unconditionally/absolutely.
  3. Works are only necessary in a conditional sense, provided there is time and opportunity to do them.
  4. The thief on the cross had neither the time, nor the opportunity to do works, so he is excused from them.
  5. For the rest of us however, we do not have that excuse, so works become necessary for our justification.
This is a rather ingenious argument, I have to say. So, after examining John Wesley’s views, I can conclude that the Methodists believe that Jesus’s work on the cross grant all believers the garment of salvation but to be righteous, there is some dependence on human effort.

What do the rest think? Any Methodists in the house?
Click to expand...
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#32
PennEd said:
Agree. Our faith that GOD GAVE US as a gift, is activated by our hearing the Word.
Click to expand...
Well looks like you have condemned all the deaf people reading your HALF-RIGHT WORDS.....
I am sure they will appreciate that....and I guess you just invalidated all of GODS MIRACLES THAT PEOPLE SAW
Let it be noted and recorded your. EYES ARE NO GOOD FOR FAITH.....seeing doesn't do anything just pluck your eyes out because you have to have EARS.....so we deaf people are condemned then right ?
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#33
PennEd said:
I don't think we agree.

My faith comes from the Lord. This is an important point. Your posts are all about what YOU did and do.

BTW, why are you labeling yourself a caucasion? First off, I think we can all see that, ( Cool hairdo! you look like a Viking!) secondly, it's a little weird to put that in your profile.

But I digress. Where does YOUR faith come from?

Why do some hear and NOT believe, while others hear and DO believe? WHERE does YOUR faith come from?
Click to expand...
I write ALL GLORY TO GOD
And you LIE .....about me.
You arent getting anything from your faith.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#34
Apr 22, 2013
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#34
SIMON55 said:
I write ALL GLORY TO GOD
And you LIE .....about me.
You arent getting anything from your faith.
Click to expand...
What am I lying about?

That you identify as a Caucasian?
That you refuse to say where your faith comes from?

That you have cool hair?
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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Feb 15, 2019
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#35
John146 said:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. One hears the word of God. One believes the word of God. The faith of Christ is given after one hears and believes. Galatians 2:16.
Click to expand...
Are there blind people here insisting Faith only comes by hearing....because scripture says those who have
EYES TO SEE.....
I am confused are the blind condemning the deaf ?😀
So.....that would mean there would be no point in printing bibles in brail wouldn't it....?
Because they wouldn't receive any faith from seeing even if they had sight their eyes would still be useless.
Wonder why Christ kept telling everyone .....
" It is written "
Can you hear what is written when you put your ear to a scroll kind of like a seashell?
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#36
PennEd said:
What am I lying about?

That you identify as a Caucasian?
That you refuse to say where your faith comes from?

That you have cool hair?
Click to expand...
Oh you're real mature Christian .....resorting to personal insults about personal appearance...
Where is it that I have Identified as Caucasion ?
and how is JUDGING someone by there hair any different than Judging them by ethnicity or skin color ?
My faith comes from
SEEING....initialy....you keep saying that deaf people are condemned.
My faith comes from GOD!
Your claims of me writing I take credit for what God did are ABSURD LIES !
My faith certainly doesn't tell me to stoop your lower level and say something immature about your appearance or your hair or skin color.....
You have real issues you need to work on.😀
 
SIMON55

SIMON55

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#37
Feb 15, 2019
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#37
PennEd said:
I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong.
And if it were not wrong, where does YOUR faith come from if not a gift from God? Do you muster it up out of your own heart?

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THAT not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We have been saved by Grace with faith being activated by the hearing of the Word. RIGHT THERE it says the faith is a gift of God, and the reason it is a Gift, and NOT a work, is so people CAN'T boast about how they mustered up faith themselves.

This is from Ligonier Website, and it is absolutely true.
If we believe that we are capable of working up faith in our souls, we cannot boast in Christ alone. But if we understand that we have faith only because of the work of the Holy Spirit, then we can truly give God all the glory for our salvation. We are not to look at ourselves as better than others because we believe the gospel; rather, we are to be profoundly grateful that God has chosen to grant us faith even though we are undeserving sinners.
Click to expand...
You don't even realize you reprimanded yourself with your own pasties.....
1. First you limit the holy spirit to what is audible
2. Then you revalidate it
3. Then you reprimanded yourself for believing yourself better because you heard the word and dont believe faith can come by seeing......
You're just all over the place.😀
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#38
Apr 22, 2013
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#38
SIMON55 said:
Oh you're real mature Christian .....resorting to personal insults about personal appearance...
Where is it that I have Identified as Caucasion ?
and how is JUDGING someone by there hair any different than Judging them by ethnicity or skin color ?
My faith comes from
SEEING....initialy....you keep saying that deaf people are condemned.
My faith comes from GOD!
Your claims of me writing I take credit for what God did are ABSURD LIES !
My faith certainly doesn't tell me to stoop your lower level and say something immature about your appearance or your hair or skin color.....
You have real issues you need to work on.😀
Click to expand...

Umm.. In your profile Thor!


Where did you get the idea I was insulting your hair? I DO think it's cool! And... Yeah... Insulting someone skin color is a tad bit worse than insulting their hair! But I'm not insulting your hair.

Hey! what do you know! You finally admit your faith comes from God!

well.. I don't know about you, but I feel like this has been a productive talk. Thanks for not stooping to my level, and keep rockin that do!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Dec 12, 2013
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#39
PAUL, who was a Pharisee, was guiltless OUTWARDLY concerning the law, was taught by direct REVELATION by JESUS himself and writes almost HALF of the NEW TESTAMENT said....

THEREFORE, we CONCLUDE, a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the DEEDS/WORKS of the LAW.

HE also said.....

ABRAHAM believed GOD and t was put to his account for righteousness

He also said...

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us

He also said.....

For by GRACE are we SAVED through faith and THAT NOT of ourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD and NOT of works lest any man should boast

HE also said.....

"A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ."

AND BEFORE anyone jumps the gun and uses JAMES out of CONTEXT..........

JAMES speaks to the contradiction between a mere belief in GOD as the demons have and GENUINE saving faith and OUR CLAIM OF FAITH being SEEN by MEN by the works that WE DO.......

FAITH alone saves, justifies, sanctifies positionally and seals US before GOD eternally....

ANY works or fruit that we produce is the direct result of CHRIST in us BY FAITH doing the work THROUGH US as a LIVING sacrifice.....
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#40
Dec 28, 2016
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#40
Grandpa said:
I haven't really studied Wesley because I don't agree with what he says. And I definitely haven't agreed with what Weslyians have explained to me.

I think, instead of excusing the thief on the cross, we should study what happened there.

The thief repented. The thief saw that what he had done was not good, that he deserved his punishment, but he turned away from his own wisdom and his own strength and turned to the Lord Jesus Christ instead.

I think that the Lord draws us to this conclusion. Or it is so obvious that we can't help but see it.

The bible says that God isn't a respecter of persons. So keeping that in mind, if God has done something for one and hasn't placed conditions of work on what He has done for the one, then there is no reason why He won't do that for another or for all.


So, on the one hand, I don't agree that works are necessary for salvation.

On the other hand, I do think that works will follow salvation as fruit from abiding in Christ. But what that work looks like is up to God and not up to people.
Click to expand...
I too reject the teachings of the Wesley's. Mostly for the fact that they outright reject predestination and election. By the way, I grew up in a United Methodist Church.

When a person takes a look at the thief on the cross, by Spirit help and illumination, it is clear to see from the words of the thief that he was regenerate. This is the only reason he said the things he did concerning Christ.
 
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