Not By Works

How does the ENEMY "SUPPRESS" the TRUTH?

Jesus gave a good example about HYPOCRISY that NULLIFIES God's Word in an attempt to uphold RULES taught by men such as OSAS.

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT” Mark 7:6-13

And according to John...

...Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God. John 12:42-43

So Peter's advice to those who are suffering for standing for the TRUTH (those who are being SILENCED for speaking the TRUTH) is,

...But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 1 Peter 3:15-17

This is where freedom is found, when we empty ourselves "of ourselves" and cease striving.

Rest in Him

TT - I do not know you, but you seem to have no reticence for judgementalism and condemnation.
You jump right into condemning something you do not know.

This is very sad behaviour. Where did you learn it?
I am glad there is the internet between us, because I would be worried what you might think
you could do. One has this sense of trust in God people, but some shake this to the core.
I am interested in your thoughts on Nazarene Church theology, but then maybe too detailed for
your talents.

And my friend, I am very humble, and am sorry if I have caused you offence in some way.
And you are a joker. I expect people to follow Jesus, not me.

So unfortunately the poverty of your analysis speaks about you not me, as you do not know
me. God bless you, and I look forward to meeting you at the throne of Grace, may the Lord
inspire your walk, and bring peace to your day.

I do not think anyone has SAID THAT. What I see, is one who is either inexperienced at presenting what they BELIEVE and why they Believe that, or either that our you believe somethings totally different that the Nazarene Church. He is an Article of FAITH, from the Nazarence Church that may be the very one that has been the very one that has caused all the confusion:

Church of the Nazarene
http://nazarene.org/articles-faith

10. We believe that sanctification is the work of God which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification, we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service. Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

END QUOTE.


FROM WHAT I READ, it is talking about what our GLORIFIED BODY WILL BE LIKE AFTER THE RESURRECTION. Preceded by what they call ENTIRE CONSECRATION. We just call that to be the SANCTIFICATION Process. Which is where the HOLY SPIRIT IN US will continue to mold us to be like CHRIST, and it is a LIFE-LONG Process to WALK LIKE HIM, and THINK LIKE HIM. As we Spiritually Mature, we will sin LESS, AND LESS, AND LESS.

I Need you to explain “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” because to us, THAT HAPPENS at the very BEGINNING OF FAITH. The Holy Spirit comes into our HEART (human spirit), birthing the human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, IMMERSING (Baptizing) us into the spiritual Body of CHRIST of which HE is the Head, while at the same time POURING GOD's LOVE into our Hearts (human spirit) Rom. 5:5. THAT IS THE VERY MOMENT WE BELIEVE.

One more point that I totally disagree with, is this statement in Article 8.

We believe that all persons may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless they repent of their sins, be hopelessly and eternally lost.

In my opinion that TOTALLY CONTRADICTS what He said in this VERSE:

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;
but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


They were CHURCH-goers, but they were NOT BORN AGAIN. Mat. 7 will points these so-called Christians out that Had no personal relationship to Jesus Christ as LORD (Master), which is BORN AGAIN.

That is enough for now, but there are some statements pertaining to our SIN NATURE, that I am not sure if they will agree with me or not. But some other time, would be be best, perhaps another thread.

So MrFootsteps can you answer Budman's question, because I have read all your posts and it seems to me that you believe unless one is perfect (transformed) they will go to the lake of fire?? Works salvation!!!

I will be waiting for your answer??

For a short while when I was in my twenties I went to a Salvation Army Temple, they are part of this holiness movement.

I did not know what it was, but I knew that there was something very wrong, felt like I never left the Catholic Church, I realize now that they do not understand "sanctification" and they think their flesh is being redeemed and of course in this scenario "a sin" that is not confessed and repented of is a barrier to keeping eternal life.

We do not finish in the flesh what God starts in the Spirit.

Have you deceived me?
Have you had accounts here before?
I want an answer.

Hi PennEd, and do you suppose you're really going to get an honest answer "truthfully" ?

It seems like even lying to the Holy Spirit is allowed in your OSAS group.

Here's what the bible says;

...But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

You have just exposed the true colors of OSAS believers and I see those who agreed with you.

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.Ephesians 5:6

...And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. Romans 13:11

It does state clearly that if we want to enter into his rest we must cease from our own labors.

Hi vco,

Thank you. Your summary for me summaries the problem.

"these so-called Christians"

It is this idea, that someone can know the Lord, be blessed in the Holy Spirit, communes and is destined
for heaven, yet you use the term "these so-called Christians"

We belong to an experiential faith. Let me lay this out.
A person, a sinner, has conviction of faith. They know they need to change, they know that Jesus is
the Son of God, who has taken their sins, and they can accept this. The Holy Spirit falls and their
life changes. They do not have a list of theology or ideas, they are a new creation, a born again
believer.

Now this is not bounded by denomination or years of thought, or bible college or anything other
than they have had an encounter with God.

But then, you desire to be able to judge a group of sincere, loving followers of Jesus as "so-called Christians"

Before God I cannot do this, nor would I dare, because what God has declared clean, I must declare clean.

And here is the potential hypocrisy. You can say people can morally live however they like, with no consequence,
yet a whole denomination are called "so-called Christians". That is a sad joke, and a commentary on the
bankruptcy of such a position.

And thank you for taking the time to start to talk theology, progress,
Thank you Jesus

UnderGrace, thank you.

I understand where you are from then. In a sense you judge any here who come from such
fellowships as wrong, is a fundamental way.

So there is a barrier of fellowship which you will not cross and I respect that.
God bless you, however you choose to walk.

This is like asking, what is you employment record, where are you from, can I trust you?

Apparently not, but then how many here accept that the Nazarene church is Christian?

And for me this gets to the heart of the spirit of judgementalism which can doom people to hell.
It is foolish to judge a brother in the Lord.

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matt 7:2

I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
1 cor 4:3-5

Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:11

It is interesting. The last verse about judging his brother, says by doing so you are not keeping the law.
Many would say they are not under the law, the law of the Spirit that is, so they can do what they like.
What a moral mess.

So if I have not broken any rules why is it I am treated as if I have?

Maybe because some really do hate, have a perception that God is this way and not that.

Because maybe following Gods laws, His will and who is in the Kingdom and who is does not matter to many.
But when we all meet Him, the Lord of All, then it will be obvious, it matters above anything else.

Thank you guys for reading this, you would not otherwise, Praise the Lord.

Legalism

There is a kind of joke, that is playing out here, a real life parable.
A site has some rules. Not necessarily clearly defined and a group want to enforce this set of
rules which they feel will define them and get rid of the enemy, the other group they hate.

There means of operation is to operate within the rules, and where ever possible enforce them
to get rid of their opponent.

The joke is they claim God does not operate in the same way. God will not go through the
whole of mankind and get rid of His enemies, look up in a book to see if people are written
there, and if not, destroy them in torment forever.

No no, there is a friendly book, which means if you get the pass mark, the special sticker
you are safe no matter how you have behaved, before or after knowing the King.
You can blaspheme and deny Him in the worst ways after knowing Him no problems.

Is this the way you think any system should operate? And if man would not operate like
this, why would the living creator of the universe who can do what He likes, pervert His
justice and truth in this way.

UnderGrace,

Attitudes. There is a serious question here which I have always struggled to answer.
We know we need to be different to walk like Jesus, but how and when will this take place?

What is the difference between a believer and a sinner that sends one to hell and one to be with Jesus?
The two extremes are, everyone who believes, stamped, in or only the perfect people, who make the grade.

So you get formulations of theology which come with different perspectives to an answer.
I stand between the two, saying it is our direction of travel that matters, our openness to change,
the foundation built in our lives, and how we have walked.

Paul talks about fire, building on the original work. Equally the idea is the foundation is lost.
Now my problem, which does hurt, is the idea that these question in someway can be mocked.

And it is this mocking that talks about conceit, hardness of heart, not having a foundation of the cross,
and a pretence. All I am sharing is public domain touching on important ideas, that for centuries people
have discussed and worked through. And the beginning of such a walk with the Lord is humbleness to
the realities and tensions involved.

Can you admit to this reality, or is it just them and us?

Amen! You seem to agree that works do not "initially" save us, but in post #81,275, you said that you push a "works plus grace gospel" to "maintain" your salvation. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4064 That is problematic! Salvation "maintained" by works is "type 2 works salvation."

In post #86,537, you stated Jesus sets conditions on our salvation then went on to say it is NOT a gift, but a prize we get at the end. You also said we can say we have it now....but we cannot claim it till we have earned it. *That is also problematic! - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4327#post-3853939 Salvation is a gift that we freely accept (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we earn based on the merits of our performance.

Of course we are supposed to obey God. When did I say that we are not supposed to obey God? Why would I need to reply to that long list of verses you posted? I don't have a problem with those verses you posted and none of them teach salvation by works. I could add a couple more verses off the top of my head to your list:

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Titus 3:8 - The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

If you believe that one or more of those verses in your list does teach salvation either "obtained" or "maintained" by works, then we could go over them one at a time. You already stated in this post that works do not save, although when compared to other statements you made in other posts it comes across as sugar coated double talk.

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) His FINISHED WORK OF REDEMPTION is sufficient and complete to save believers. It's up to us to receive Him through faith/believe the gospel. That is how we obtain salvation. The Christian life is not about getting saved then doing nothing and it's also not about doing something to help Jesus save us either.

Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1)

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. I often hear works-salvationists quote this translation of the Bible in their effort to teach that "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ, we must also be "holy enough" in of ourselves if we expect to see the Lord -- works salvation. Yet that is not what Paul is teaching. The NASB (as you quoted from) reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification in respect to spiritual growth towards maturity in Christ.

End of part 1.

Part 2.

In other posts you have stated differently, but I agree with this statement here. I have always said that faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and obedience/good works which follow are the FRUIT. NO FRUIT AT ALL demonstrates there is NO ROOT.

Fruit of the Spirit is the visible effects of the Holy Spirit by those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Where does the Bible say, "lose sanctification" or "lose justification" or "lose salvation?" In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

There is a difference between the two.

So you are saying to give a brother or sister these things needed for the body in James 2:15-16 is NOT a "good work" and to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to NOT break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) which is NOT found written in the law of Moses? (Leviticus 19:18). Please explain to me which good works a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

I am familiar with the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant) and with the New Covenant. Believers are not under 613 laws under the Old Covenant with all it's rules and regulations and you still cannot dissect the moral aspect of the law from the Old Covenant and it's not abolished in the New Covenant. Since the Old Covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the Old Covenant to "put legally into place" the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). The life of discipleship flows out of the New Command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10).

Is clothing the naked a "good work?" Is refusing to clothe the naked to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses? (Leviticus 19:18). *That is my point. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. S

What do you mean So???? You keep missing the point that you CANNOT DISSECT GOOD WORKS FROM THE MORAL ASPECT OF THE LAW and teach we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. Jesus did not say that works are the necessary means by which we obtain eternal life. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 in regards to obtaining eternal life? Nothing about works and works are the fruit of salvation but never the root of it.

It amazes me how you continue to miss my point.

Of course we are to do good works. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Hi vco,

It seems you have only two issues with the statement of faith.
A question about infilling of the Holy Spirit, and losing ones salvation.

Now here is the kicker. Losing salvation is enough for you to disown their walk with God.

This is tick box legalism. And it is just emotional provocative language.
If this is the foundation for people to shout abuse, invent lies, slander, possession by the enemy,
evil intent, corruption etc. it shows the heart of the people involved is the issue not anything
about theology or the Kingdom.

Kick a slop bucket and slop comes out. A people are defined by how they treat their enemies.

God bless you, however you feel about me, the Lord loves you and desires to know you better.

The heart

Is our heart a slop bucket, when kicked we are ashamed of what comes out, or is it a work
of God grace and forgiveness, and we desire to see His Kingdom reign?

So many want to live with the slop bucket and defend it against all comers.
I like my slop bucket, how dare you suggest I have a slop bucket, everyone else is just
a slop bucket and God is fine with that if you admit He has forgiven all slop buckets.

Hey heaven will allow slop buckets in no problem. Anyone who says they are not a slop
bucket is a hypocrite and a liar, "Hic", oh did I say that, "Hic" what is that fire I hear roaring.

This answer is completely evasive. The exact point of the question was to NOT judge you, but to hear from your heart.

I'll try ONE more time, and will recognize that if you do not answer yeah or nay, that you have in fact deceived.

Have you had account/accounts here before, and if so, have you been banned before?