Not By Works

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GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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the lie is this-
the same man , in the same letter, after he stated keep the commands , went on to lay out what the commands are.

so, to just snip out one thing that John said, and use it point anywhere one wants , is a deceptive lie, because John stated what the Commands are.
What are they?
If there are commands...aren't we supposed to keep them?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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You miss-understand us. Without a cleansed heart how can you please God?
For out of this unclean heart come everything that pollutes and defiles us, making us unacceptable to the
Father and worthy of judgement.

So of course trying to be good is pointless, actually being good because the law is written on your heart
is totally different, because ones inheritance is from the Lord himself.

But I read time and again people saying they abide in sin and refuse to repent or resolve the issues they
declare they know about. And then others says no one in the flesh can be righteous, no matter how spiritually
cleansed because the flesh is evil.

However it is explained, bottom line is sin dominates and rules.
Jesus proclaims freedom. But these words to a hard unclean heart mean nothing, because until they
are experienced personally, they are like delusion and insanity, a different Kingdom.

So I have to ask, do you believe He who rose Jesus from the dead can achieve this in you?
Not hyper cleansing, but real cleansing and love from your heart to others, even me?

Take the most irritating, disfunctional person you know, God can show you with His love how
to love Him. Do you believe this?
God wants to touch men through you. Not your love. His. Let the river flow.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Roman Catholic - "We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass
Speaking of this bros

Read the Roman Catholic definition of faith. It includes baptism, right?

Enter Luther, enter the reformation. They came up with the slogan "Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Sola deo Gloria and Sola cant rememberia." Basically: Faith alone through Christ alone. We the protestant church then picked up this slogan of Faith alone and still use it to this day.

BUT I would contend after reading Luther's writings that HE DID NOT believe in faith alone as we believe it. If you read the Lutheran catechism they STILL require baptism for salvation and teach it saves!
So much for faith alone! I wonder why they picked that slogan!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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You're against God's commandments??
You believe the Moral Law is abolished??

Abraham had faith....
That's why he obeyed.
Obedience of Faith.
Why do you worry about the moral law if the pure Holy Spirit has taken up residence within your heart?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,002
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It’s called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith
This verse, along with Romans 1:5 is often cited and misinterpreted by works-salvationists in order to teach salvation by faith + obedience/works. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

*Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "UNTO" obedience/works.

These folks are too busy looking for loop holes in God’s word that gives them the right to live immoral lives of disobedience, rather than just reading God’s word.
Typical straw man argument.

I feel sad for their family and children who will be taught their perverted Gospel.
I feel sad for a multitude of "nominal" Christians in various false religions and cults who were taught and have embraced a perverted gospel of works-salvation (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and refuse to repent and BELIEVE the gospel. (Romans 1:16)

All the young Christians as well have grown thinking obedience to His commandments, His doctrine and His gospel is somehow a bad thing.

So sad.
I'm yet to hear genuine born again Christians say that authentic obedience is a bad thing. Expecting to be saved based on the merits of obedience/works (salvation by works) is a bad thing. Obedience which flows from a regenerate heart in the power of the Holy Spirit out of gratitude and love for the Lord is not a bad thing.

It will be too late when they stand before Him on Judgement Day.
It will be too late for works-salvationists before Him on Judgment Day (Matthew 7:22-23).
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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God wants to touch men through you. Not your love. His. Let the river flow.
In Christ our love is His love, because love itself is the likeness of God put into our hearts.
To abide in Christ is to be part of Him, part of His body, part of the Kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is prepared to take up to His throne, because He makes us His friends, His love is our
foundation, it our heart song. So let His love flow, without restraint and do not judge love
just let it be the expression of your heart as your heart abide is our Lord, Amen
 
Oct 31, 2015
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what is the Gospel?

believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

what commands are we to obey?

believe in the name of the Son and love one another.

so, to believe is to obey.

belief- obtains salvation.

obey- what one does after one believes. does not cause nor maintain salvation.

and, I wish you and others would stop jumping to the conclusion that we who tell the truth about salvation through grace and faith alone are somehow saying " just believe and you behave however you want, does not matter."

no one is saying that.


obey- what one does after one believes. does not cause nor maintain salvation.


Yes now that one is born again, they have the ability to obey His doctrine, His commandments, His truth.


Now that a person is born again, and empowered by the Spirit, to live in dominion over the sinful desires of the flesh, it’s a daily choice to walk according to the Spirit and obey the Spirit of truth, rather than obeying the lustful desires of our flesh.


We who are born again and filled with the Spirit of God, have a choice to live our lives in obedience to the Spirit of Christ, and practice righteousness or live as a slave to the desires of our flesh, and practice the works of the flesh.



Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8



  • but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.



JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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and the lying about Scripture goes on and on.

same man, same letter, " the commands are believe in the name of the Son and love one another "

you can fight against truth all you want, it does not nullify Scripture.


Here’s the truth.


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15



If you worship other gods, is that loving God or hating God?
  1. Loving God
  2. Hating God


If I murder my neighbor, is that loving my neighbor or hating them?

  1. Loving my neighbor
  2. Hating my neighbor


If I steal from my brother is that loving him?

  1. Loving my brother
  2. Hating my brother





JPT
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,002
13,010
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Speaking of this bros

Read the Roman Catholic definition of faith. It includes baptism, right?

Enter Luther, enter the reformation. They came up with the slogan "Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Sola deo Gloria and Sola cant rememberia." Basically: Faith alone through Christ alone. We the protestant church then picked up this slogan of Faith alone and still use it to this day.

BUT I would contend after reading Luther's writings that HE DID NOT believe in faith alone as we believe it. If you read the Lutheran catechism they STILL require baptism for salvation and teach it saves!
So much for faith alone! I wonder why they picked that slogan!
Do ALL Lutheran churches teach that water baptism saves? I've never been a member of a Lutheran church, but just like other denominations, doctrine may vary from church to church and regardless of what others teach, salvation is by grace through faith in JESUS CHRIST ALONE - "apart from works" (including water baptism). Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 15:8,9; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Why do you worry about the moral law if the pure Holy Spirit has taken up residence within your heart?
You're writing on an open forum.
People are reading along.
Some are new Christians.

Are you telling new Christians that they don't have to obey the Moral Law?
THIS IS WHY I'M WORRIED ABOUT IT....
Because it's not true....

Jesus did not come to abolish the law,,,,in fact, He made it more difficult by moving it to the heart.
But then.....He sent the Holy Spirit to help us walk with God and be our paraclete.

So, why not just answer the question instead of asking a new one?
What about the following do you not agree with?

1 John 2:4
4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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With this mindset you are canceling out the body of Jesus the Christ on earth. Commands from the Head to each individual, His members. Using scripture and/or His Voice of Holy Spirit within our spirit. Led by Him....or sometimes just knowing the right thing to do.

But, if you teach obedience just to the scriptures, where is your personal walk with Him? That's my issue with the use of laws. No different than the Jews. Jesus is the living Torah and makes His will known to each of us.

So believe He has spoken and step out in confidence of His working His power. His Acts. Good deeds are just that. Anyone can do them. And it doesn't require a change of "nature".

However, two natures cannot be unified. One has to die.


I’m canceling out nothing.


I’m stating scripture.



I’m teaching obedience to Christ.



His commandments
His doctrine
His law



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2



Fulfill.
verb (used with object)
to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively):She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work





JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
the lie is this-
the same man , in the same letter, after he stated keep the commands , went on to lay out what the commands are.

so, to just snip out one thing that John said, and use it point anywhere one wants , is a deceptive lie, because John stated what the Commands are.

but, coming from one who thinks " believe " and " obey " are the same word ( they are not ). you would not see my point.




“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15



If you worship other gods, is that loving God or hating God?
  1. Loving God
  2. Hating God


If I murder my neighbor, is that loving my neighbor or hating them?

  1. Loving my neighbor
  2. Hating my neighbor


If I steal from my brother is that loving him?

  1. Loving my brother
  2. Hating my brother




JPT
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Do ALL Lutheran churches teach that water baptism saves? I've never been a member of a Lutheran church, but just like other denominations, doctrine may vary from church to church and regardless of what others teach, salvation is by grace through faith in JESUS CHRIST ALONE - "apart from works" (including water baptism). Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 15:8,9; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
I don't claim to understand why....
but Jesus said we are to be baptized.

Mathew 28:19
He sends the Apostles out on the Great Commission and tells them to make disciples of all nations and to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL that Jesus has taught.

He taught that we're to be baptized and Jesus is telling the Aposles that we are to observe what He taught, so we should be baptized.

I would do what Jesus said and not take any chances.
Disobedience runs deep once we start to disobey.....

1 John 2:4


It seems as if YOU make up Christian doctrine....
I DO BELIEVE that Jesus has already accomplished this.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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You can't tear down what God has built by teaching law. And that is what you are doing when all you have is judgemental thoughts about others. And are more concerned about the outward man and not what Jesus has given to us.

It's His blood, the power of His sacrifice that He's already performed and the ongoing affect of this on our lives that empowers the Spirit within us to walk as He walked. We are cleansed by blood. Not by our adhering to laws of we must do..

Teach the cleansing power of faith in His blood. What He has purchased for us. And walk in His power. The Word then becomes the living Word as we give Him to the world.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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The obedience of faith is not what you are peddling.

What commandment was Abraham obeying when he left his home not knowing where he was going?

What commandment was he following when he took his only natural born son, his heir who which would be the ancestry of the "seed" of faith to the altar of sacrifice?

Commands. He was hearing...fellow shipping with God. And following.

We are an army. One body carrying out His functions. By faith or believing our commander against the enemy. And the enemy lies. So we make a choice of who we will believe in the garden of our heart.

Obedience to Christ.


If you want to peddle disobedience to Christ then that’s on you.



I’m teaching obedience to Christ.



His commandments
His doctrine
His law



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2



Fulfill.
verb (used with object)
to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively):She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work




It’s called the Truth.





JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
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BUT I would contend after reading Luther's writings that HE DID NOT believe in faith alone

Where in the scriptures does it say we are saved by “faith alone”?



The principle of faith requires obedience to activate faith, making it alive, otherwise it’s dead.




JPT
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I’m canceling out nothing.


I’m stating scripture.



I’m teaching obedience to Christ.



His commandments
His doctrine
His law



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2



Fulfill.
verb (used with object)
to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively):She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work





JPT
To read persons fight against the plain Word of God when it is presented to them,,,is indeed a sorry state of affairs for Christianity.

To see them fight against obedience....and then also state that they believe in obedience....
There is indeed confusion in our faith if this is what we've come to.
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
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To read persons fight against the plain Word of God when it is presented to them,,,is indeed a sorry state of affairs for Christianity.

To see them fight against obedience....and then also state that they believe in obedience....
There is indeed confusion in our faith if this is what we've come to.

Yes. It’s sad to see how deceived these folks are.



All they can do is insult and lie.



They are tools of Satan.




JPT
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Speaking of this bros

Read the Roman Catholic definition of faith. It includes baptism, right?

Enter Luther, enter the reformation. They came up with the slogan "Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Sola deo Gloria and Sola cant rememberia." Basically: Faith alone through Christ alone. We the protestant church then picked up this slogan of Faith alone and still use it to this day.

BUT I would contend after reading Luther's writings that HE DID NOT believe in faith alone as we believe it. If you read the Lutheran catechism they STILL require baptism for salvation and teach it saves!
So much for faith alone! I wonder why they picked that slogan!
The reformation was more about the authority of the church to define dogma, and its expression, rather than
individual believers, who establish a relationship with God and walk in it.

I know a catholic priest who wants to preach in his church, but the service only gives him 10-15 minutes.
You can just fit in a minor observation similar to a few notes here.

The idea believers could walk by the Holy Spirit inspired by the living God meant why have a church with
its traditions and power, literally state power and wealth. Like the pharisees this was like death to them.

Luther was a monk who objected to how the faith was expressed not its essentials.
Once people started to read scripture because of the printing press, then came all these expressions
as people were inspired. And praise God people are finding Jesus everywhere. Amen.