Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

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eternally-gratefull

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#261
#261
Grandpa said:
That's why I put Calvinism in quotes.

There was no Calvinism in Pauls day.

But if someone told him the tenets of Calvinism he would understand them better than anyone else.
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he may, But i am not sure he would agree with them.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#262
#262
garee said:
He believed as the Holy Spirit gave him the faith that comes from hearing God not seen.. Its what the lord was pricking his hard heart with the letter of the law (it kills) and that the Spirit of the law (Spirit of grace) did soften it his heart so that he could believe.

Again prior to Christ forming the seed of the gospel .Paul had no faith .Not little none.
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He still had to chose to say yes. He could have said no at any point in Christ’s conversation with him (of course we woudl never know be cause we would have never heard of some guy named saul. God would have gotten someone else.
 
G

Grandpa

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#263
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#263
John146 said:
He believed upon seeing the resurrected Jesus, he wasn’t forced. The lord had been pricking his heart for a while and Paul resisted.
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Apparently you didn't read Acts 9
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

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#264
John146 said:
He believed upon seeing the resurrected Jesus, he wasn’t forced. The lord had been pricking his heart for a while and Paul resisted.
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Saul's conversion would be the consummate definition of a will deemed IRRESITABLE! Would it not?
Apparently you have not been in such "presence" as Saul was. Because, resistance is about the last thing on one's tongue! Let alone in one's mind, heart, soul, or spirit! ;)
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

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#265
eternally-gratefull said:
He still had to chose to say yes. He could have said no at any point in Christ’s conversation with him (of course we woudl never know be cause we would have never heard of some guy named saul. God would have gotten someone else.
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I have to laugh, EG! When in a "presence" like that? Sure! The onlooker can say he still had to choose! But, should you find yourself in such a "presence?" Come back here in this forum and tell us all how you chose to say NO! Would ya do that for us? ;)

Of course, I don't think ya would, EG! But, should you find yerself in a similar situation? Just try and tell Him No! Betcha can't! Betcha won't! Betcha can't! :p Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! :p
 
Chester

Chester

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#266
May 23, 2016
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#266
NayborBear said:
I have to laugh, EG! When in a "presence" like that? Sure! The onlooker can say he still had to choose! But, should you find yourself in such a "presence?" Come back here in this forum and tell us all how you chose to say NO! Would ya do that for us? ;)

Of course, I don't think ya would, EG! But, should you find yerself in a similar situation? Just try and tell Him No! Betcha can't! Betcha won't! Betcha can't! :p Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! :p
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LOL! Put all the "Betchas" you want in a row, that does not change the fact that Paul was a man created in the image of God - he was not created as a robot or as an angelic being.

Did God force Paul to believe? Absolutely not!
Did God woo and entice and love and pressure Paul? You Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha !Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! :eek:
 
Chester

Chester

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#267
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#267
And by the way, God did not force Paul to keep on believing in Him, either! :p Paul always was and always continued to be a man created in the image of God!
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

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#268
Chester said:
LOL! Put all the "Betchas" you want in a row, that does not change the fact that Paul was a man created in the image of God - he was not created as a robot or as an angelic being.

Did God force Paul to believe? Absolutely not!
Did God woo and entice and love and pressure Paul? You Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha !Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! :eek:
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Thank you Chester! Another vote YES, for a tenet of Calvinism! Irresistable WILL!
Yeah? Jesus didn't force Paul in accepting! He just took away every OTHER option! :p
 
G

Grandpa

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#269
Chester said:
And by the way, God did not force Paul to keep on believing in Him, either! :p Paul always was and always continued to be a man created in the image of God!
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I'm not sure why the humanists and arminians keep saying forced. The term used in the bible is chosen or elected.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Its like saying a person is forced to collect on his winning lottery ticket. There were choices the winner could have made. But they always make the same one.

I don't think there is any way to change someones mind who thinks they make all the decisions and do the work to cause God to save them and keep them saved.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#270
#270
Grandpa said:
I'm not sure why the humanists and arminians keep saying forced. The term used in the bible is chosen or elected.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Its like saying a person is forced to collect on his winning lottery ticket. There were choices the winner could have made. But they always make the same one.

I don't think there is any way to change someones mind who thinks they make all the decisions and do the work to cause God to save them and keep them saved.
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Did he chose based on his infinite knowledge of what Saul would do (Like He chose Pharoah because he Knew pharoah would harden his own heart?)

Or did he just make it so Paul could in no means resist? (He forced)

Calvinism has an issue. Either paul could have said no. Or he was forced (had no choice in the matter)

They can not have it both ways brother
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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Hevosmies said:
@Angela53510 @Sackcloth-N-Ashes @preacher4truth @allcalvinists

I got a question: WHY did Jesus speak in parables and say the mysteries of the kingdom was given to you (disciples) and then goes on to say that it is that way SO THAT they (the outsiders) wont repent and be forgiven?

That doesnt match with total depravity at all. They should already be unwilling to repent because they arent the elect or regenerated?
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Well of course they're unwilling. Jesus does this so they will not become willing to do so, not so they can't repent and believe, which is already their current state, but so that they won't.

Therefore this is not evidence that they are not totally depraved or that they're not in a state of inability.

Now, those who preach their false gospel that God owes it to be fair to everyone and give everyone a chance to vote themselves into heaven is found wanting. It just is not true, and is not biblical. Not that I expect Scripture to ever change the minds of those who deny the truth and preach this false gospel of theirs.

Jesus just showed his Sovereignty in salvation and election; Mark 4:12. Matthew 11:25-30 does the same, and he is immutable. Note also Exodus 33:17-23.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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Adstar said:
I have not received a response from a calvanist telling me what criteria God uses to decide if He is going to force someone to believe and be saved and block others from believing and being saved...

Seems calvanists don't want to answer my question..
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You've been shown numerous times, yet you go into one of your hissy fits when shown and don't want to talk any more, call names, whine, falsely accuse, cry &c.

It is interesting to watch you pretend though.

Here's betting you'll do it again. :)
 
G

garee

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eternally-gratefull said:
He still had to chose to say yes. He could have said no at any point in Christ’s conversation with him (of course we woudl never know be cause we would have never heard of some guy named saul. God would have gotten someone else.
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Yes as he gives us the will power to make it possible. (let there be and there was ) He who alone uses the temporal unseen as good who defines the eternal things unseen by that which he declares is good. Only God not seen remains good as the Holy unseen place of God . Even the Son of man Jesus would not stand in that holy place. But said only God (not seen) is good to help define the use of the word faith.

Can't say yes to a God not seen. He must do the first work of turning us as his first love works in us. It caused our first love by which can believe Him not seen..(the love of truth) Its what we do return to the drawing of or hearing of his love. When we are turned or repented by the word of God when then can comfort ourselves . He is the cause who effects a new creation. Not the old creation. A person must be born again.

No man of his own accord can seek after him who has no form (not a man as us) How would he know what to seek for and use what as a media or law not subject to change it as it is written needed to defend it from the oral traditions as philosophies of men ?

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that "understandeth", there is none that "seeketh after" God.Romans3:10-11

Faith as a light unto our feet and a lamp unto our path is the gift of the Son' on man, Jesus's "work of faith" or labor of love according the will of the father. As the kind of spiritual food the disciples knew not of. . previously having none, not little.
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

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#274
Here is what I see needs reconciling betweenst Arminianism and Calvinism.
Arminians, are ones reaching out to God. Usually, at a very low point in their life situation. And God, in His Loving Kindness, and mercy, reaches out to them, in helping them get out, or away from their situation. So, the Armnian gets what he/she wants, and the rest of the time they are resisiting God's attempts at reaching out to them!

The way I see Calvinism, is that God is the One reaching out to man! And God? ALWAYS gets His man! ;)

Now! If you could get an Armnian to remember how they felt, when they reached out to God for their deliverance? Because NO One FORCED them to cry out to Jesus. Right?

Then, the Armnian could begin to understand how Irrestistable God's Grace is, when He reaches out to man!
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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preacher4truth said:
Now, those who preach their false gospel that God owes it to be fair to everyone and give everyone a chance to vote themselves into heaven is found wanting. It just is not true, and is not biblical.
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Who preaches that God *owes* salvation to anyone? That is just a straw man you have created. Now let's see you deal with the real issues:

1. Did Christ command the apostles (and by extension the Church) to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature? If so, then was it an issue of *fairness* or an issue of God's grace being extended to all mankind as Scripture says?

2. Is obedience to the Gospel *voting themselves into Heaven" or is it obedience to God's COMMANDMENTS to (1) Repent and (2) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

Do you see how you have created several straw man arguments in order to support your false beliefs? So why not deal honestly with Scripture, since you will give account for wresting the Scriptures?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#276
#276
garee said:
Yes as he gives us the will power to make it possible. (let there be and there was ) He who alone uses the temporal unseen as good who defines the eternal things unseen by that which he declares is good. Only God not seen remains good as the Holy unseen place of God . Even the Son of man Jesus would not stand in that holy place. But said only God (not seen) is good to help define the use of the word faith.

Can't say yes to a God not seen. He must do the first work of turning us as his first love works in us. It caused our first love by which can believe Him not seen..(the love of truth) Its what we do return to the drawing of or hearing of his love. When we are turned or repented by the word of God when then can comfort ourselves . He is the cause who effects a new creation. Not the old creation. A person must be born again.

No man of his own accord can seek after him who has no form (not a man as us) How would he know what to seek for and use what as a media or law not subject to change it as it is written needed to defend it from the oral traditions as philosophies of men ?

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that "understandeth", there is none that "seeketh after" God.Romans3:10-11

Faith as a light unto our feet and a lamp unto our path is the gift of the Son' on man, Jesus's "work of faith" or labor of love according the will of the father. As the kind of spiritual food the disciples knew not of. . previously having none, not little.
Click to expand...
He does draw, and he does teach, but we still have to chose, not everyone will say yes, Jesus showed how true this is when he spoke concerning jerusalem.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
 
Chester

Chester

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#277
May 23, 2016
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#277
NayborBear said:
Thank you Chester! Another vote YES, for a tenet of Calvinism! Irresistable WILL!
Yeah? Jesus didn't force Paul in accepting! He just took away every OTHER option! :p
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If I must say so, even though your answers are quite inept, you sure are hilarious and fun to dialogue with!
 
X

xjohnson

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#278
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#278
Hevosmies said:
I got a question: WHY did Jesus speak in parables and say the mysteries of the kingdom was given to you (disciples) and then goes on to say that it is that way SO THAT they (the outsiders) wont repent and be forgiven?

That doesnt match with total depravity at all. They should already be unwilling to repent because they arent the elect or regenerated?
Click to expand...
The answer to this question was addressed in the OP. Jesus spoke in parables to the Jews, because they were under Isaiah's curse, and this curse prevented them from understanding the Gospel.
 
X

xjohnson

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#279
Hi, Everyone -

I wholeheartedly appreciate all of your responses to my original post (OP).

At this point the OP stands as valid, because there hasn't been a convincing and compelling rebuttal given. Do any of you know of a theologian that would be willing to review my argument? Perhaps, I can get a cogent rebuttal that would demonstrate any shortcomings on my part. Thanks in advance.
 
G

garee

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#280
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#280
xjohnson said:
The answer to this question was addressed in the OP. Jesus spoke in parables to the Jews, because they were under Isaiah's curse, and this curse prevented them from understanding the Gospel.
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Jesus through the signified language of parables, without parables he spoke not to the multitude. The multitude is everyone that could hear and in doing so hid the spiritual unseen understanding. If any curse, the curse of unbelief.(no faith)

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
 
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