Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

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oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#41
Waggles: "Isaiah 66: (ESV) 24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

No modern academic commentary on Isaiah interprets this verse as a reference to Gehenna or Hell. That's ;partly because there is not a single reference to Hell in the OT. In fact, the only clear OT evidence for a belief in life after death is found in Daniel 12:1-3. So Isaiah 66:24 does not imply eternal conscious postmortem suffering. Keep that in mind when you consider Jesus' secondary application of Isaiah's worm imagery in Mark 9:48.

Posthuman: "do you trust your human sense of judgement enough to judge what God can and cannot do? i don't.
i think that would be the apex of arrogance."

Well, an honest seeker must first assess whether biblical revelation is minimally moral and rationally credible. If the NT concept of Hell implies a morally monstrous God, then that is a good reason to dismiss the Bible as a compilation of myths and vindictive threats designed to justify a religion shaped by a fear-mongering cultural bias. Ah, but the NT can be defended from that legitimate scruple and I will continue to provide such a defense in my next planned post. So stay tuned.

Well. as expected no one here has directly come to terms with my exegesis of the Gospel texts that imply possible release from Gehenna or, for that matter, the contemporary rabbinic meaning of a postmortem Gehenna. so I'LL move on to a demonstration of how Peter embraces this more hopeful teaching by Jesus.
I want to assure everyone that all Biblical revelation is maximally moral, totally credible, and completely concrete. Our feelings and emotions about stuff is completely irrelevant concerning this.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
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#42
Does the NT allow the possibility of ultimate postmortem release from Hell?
As far as suffering, I think it does. I believe annihilation is the end of the unrepentant.

Knowledge of the original languages is important for understanding Scripture, partly because there is often no one-to-one exact English equivalent for Hebrew and Greek theological terms. Important examples are the Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") words often translated "eternal." In fact, both words can mean "for a long time" and "enduring." Thus, in the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs the death of Isaac can be described as "enduring (aionios) sleep" with the implication of ultimate postmortem survival. Consider these 3 NT examples where "aionios" does not mean "eternal:
(a) " that you should receive him (Onesimus) forever (aionion"--better translated "for good"--Philemon 25)."
(b) the use of aionios" in the plural to mean "long ages" in Romans 16:25 and 1 Timothy 1:9
(C) the frequent use of "aionios" by the Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew "olam, which means "for a long time"
It seems being tormented "eternally" has to do with what occured "forever" in this world, not the length of time after death.

(1) JESUS' TEACHING ABOUT GEHENNA:

The ancient Jewish concept of "Gehenna" is inspired by the ancient use of the valley of Hinnom by an idolatrous cult that passed children through fire. Ancient Aramaic theological terms like "Gehenna" derive their meaning from their use in the contemporary Palestinian culture. Jesus’ concept of Gehenna must be viewed against the background of ancient rabbinic perspectives, which are nicely summarized with copious documentation in the excellent Anchor Bible Dictionary article [Vol. 2]: “Most of those [Jews] who enter it [Gehenna] in the intermediate state would be released from it…It was a fiery purgatory for those Jews whose merits and transgressions balanced one another who would afterward be admitted to Paradise. Often the punishment of Gehenna was restricted to 12 months.”
The judgment of Gehenna appears to be one where body and soul can be annihilated.

Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant uses a debtor’s prison as an image for the limited duration of punishment in Gehenna: “And in his anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt (Matthew 18:34).” Here the debt’s payment and ultimate release remain a possibility. How the debt might be paid off remains unclear, but expiation and purgation remain possibilities. Remember, “debt” (Aramaic: “chob”) is the Aramaic term for “sin” that inspires this image of Hell as a debtor’s prison.

More controversial is the related possibility that Matthew 5:25-26 refers to Gehenna:

“Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you pay the last penny.”

The symbolic interpretation of the prison as Gehenna seems preferable for 4 reasons:
(1) This saying makes little sense if taken literally. Jesus would in effect be saying: “Let me tell you how to beat the rap of criminal charges. Wait till you and your accuser are actually on the road on the way to court and then kiss up to him.”
(2) "Jesus always applies the formula “Truly I say to you” to our relationship with God, never to a purely secular issue like a court proceeding.
(3) In the first 2 centuries this saying is always interpreted symbolically.
(4) In the Lukan context (12:57-59) the saying is located in an eschatological context.
That said, Matthew 18:34 removes the necessity of invoking this saying to establish Jesus’ image of Gehenna as a debtor’s prison.

Jesus’ image of “few stripes” as an image of punishment in Gehenna implies a finite limit and therefore ultimate release: “The slave who did not know and did what deserved a beating will be beaten with few stripes (Luke 12:48).”
Being imprisoned in this life is not the same as Gehenna.

As for Jesus’ view that people who don’t follow Him can be saved, Mark 9:40 is certainly relevant: “Whoever is not against us is for us.”
The person in that passage did believe Jesus. He simply didn't walk along with the apostles. In no way was Jesus teaching someone can be saved without faith in him.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
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#43
Notice again how posters need to duck the detailed arguments offered in favor of the possibility of release from Hell!

posthuman: "just to clarify, are you saying that yes, you consider yourself both qualified and morally obligated to judge God?
and if you don't like what He says, you eisegete?"

No, I'm saying that I need to respond to God's challenge: "Come, let us reason together (Isaiah 1:18)." "Ifeellike" is losing his hope because of the mindless screed about Hell propagated by posters like you. So as a Christian I'm obligated to respond to his cry for help and his need to have his hope restored: "Whenever anyone asks you to speak of your hope, be ready to defend it (1 Peter 3:15)."
It is simply inhuman or "subhuman" [Your nickname is apt!:cautious:] to claim that ordinary decent people will suffer eternal conscious torment for their oversight in failing to accept Christ for a variety of reasons in this short life.

posthuman: "Ellicott does. Benson does. Barnes does. Brown does. Poole does Jarchi does. Gill does. How many I gotta look up for you?

How many? Just one. The online commentaries you cite are neither modern nor academic.

posthuman: "But more importantly than anything else, Jesus does (Mark 9:44-46)"

Jesus chooses to use the language of Isaiah 66 which had originally had a purely seculae application and has nothing to do with Hell or eternal demnation. You just keep ducking the key point: there is no concept of Hell in the OT!
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#44
It is sad how many of you prefer tickling your own ears over reading the Bible. What cult do you belong to anyway?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,814
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#45
Notice how posters freeze like Bambi in the headlights before the texts I've posted and then duck them in favor of other more exclusive sounding texts, even though I've said that the relevance of these texts will be carefully considered after I dis\cuss the positive texts for release from Hell. When dogmatic souls find certain texts threatening, they stop thinking and simplstically cline to more familiar texts that support their misguided agenda. .
No. I think it's more a distasteful disdain for someone who wants to use their own private interpretations. There are no passages that give hope to the eternally lost.

There are passages that talk about God wiping away every tear from His Children IN HEAVEN.

Revelation 21:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Why are God's Children crying in Heaven? Well, what happens right before this scene? The great white Throne Judgement where the unsaved are thrown into the Lake of Fire. We could be crying seeing unsaved friends and family destroyed, and also regret that we didn't preach the Gospel to them.

I think God is going to somehow erase the memory of those people. Perhaps this is how he will wipe away our tears.

Notice the progression of events in Isaiah: This gives a little more info as to how we are to have our tears wiped away.

Isaiah 61 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Good News of Salvation
61 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to [a]heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the DAY OF VENGEANCE of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To [b]CONSOLE THOSE WHO MOURN in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
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#46
Journeyman: "I believe annihilation is the end of the unrepentant.
Refuted by many NT texts, even by the texts now under discussion (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6; 1 Corinthians 15:28-29)

Journeyman: "Being imprisoned in this life is not the same as Gehenna."
Of course! And as I explain in detail, neither Matthew 18:34 nor Matthew 5:25-26 deal with being "Imprisoned in this life."

Journeyman: "The person in that passage (Mark 9:40) did believe Jesus. He simply didn't walk along with the apostles. In no way was Jesus teaching someone can be saved without faith in him."
He witnessed Jesus' success as an exorcist. Beyond that, he wasn't "for us" and didn't "follow" Jesus.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#47
People who believe they can do what
They like in this life then say sorry on the next, are just delusional.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#48
Blasphemy of the holy spirit is unforgiveable, in this life or the next. That is the unforgivable sin, and Jesus was adamant about that. You could say all you can about Jesus the man and blaspheme him all you like, but say anything against the holy spirit, and GOd wont forgive you.

As for hells of our own making, Jesus is rescuing people all the time. But the hell that comes after one dies, sorry, no chance, ones already condemned and all those in hell will end up in the lake of fire, which is why we need to tell people about Jesus now, while they got breath in their body, and not wait till they are dead and cant hear us.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#49
Refuted by many NT texts, even by the texts now under discussion (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6; 1 Corinthians 15:28-29)
1Pet4:19 means Noah preached by the Spirit of Christ to sinners before the flood (2Pet.2:5). They're now imprisoned by death, because after deathcomes judgment, not further correction.

1Pet.4:6 means the same thing. Those who are now dead, had the gospel preaced to them while they were living, like this --->Heb.4:2, the people of Moses' day.

1Cor.15 is referring to those who baptized for "the dead", meaning Christ. They were saying there is no resurrection (1Cor.15:12-19).

And as I explain in detail, neither Matthew 18:34 nor Matthew 5:25-26 deal with being "Imprisoned in this life."
Yes they do deal with being in prison in this life. Much of scripture is about being help captive while in this life. You said yourself, it isn't clear how the prisoner would be able to pay his debt. The answer is, he couldn't. The lesson is you will never be forgiven if you don't forgive others.

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic.6:8

He witnessed Jesus' success as an exorcist. Beyond that, he wasn't "for us" and didn't "follow" Jesus.
No My friend. He didnt walk alongside the apostles. He did believe in Jesus.

no man which shall do a miracle in my name, can lightly speak evil of me. Mk.9:39
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#50
1Pet4:19 means Noah preached by the Spirit of Christ to sinners before the flood (2Pet.2:5). They're now imprisoned by death, because after deathcomes judgment, not further correction.
I agree with you here. This is why we see (ultimately) "the sea gave up the DEAD"... "and death and hell gave up the DEAD" when "the DEAD [this is 'the DEAD' of all times], small and great stand before God" at the GWTj (this is to receive the final sentencing: cast into the lake of fire [where the devil/Satan is [will have just been cast into], and the beast and the false prophet are [and have been for the 1000 yrs], and it says of these three "they shall be..." (and note the time-related phrase I already posted about).] See also the phrase in Rev20:6b... and then see also Matthew 25:41 "having been prepared for the devil and his angels" which pertains also to the "ye cursed" of that passage [in the judgment of the [still-living] nations at the time of His Second Coming to the earth--when they "go away into everlasting punishment"--the sentencing of it, whereas the final carrying out of it takes place at the GWTj when "the DEAD" stand before God])
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
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#51
You overlook the many NT texts implying that we survive death, fully conscious. The texts I quote clearly teach that and so do many others. I will make that case in great detail later, after I present all my biblical evidence for potential release from Hell.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#52
You overlook the many NT texts implying that we survive death, fully conscious. The texts I quote clearly teach that and so do many others. I will make that case in great detail later, after I present all my biblical evidence for potential release from Hell.
If you are talking to me, my post I just made was not making the case EITHER WAY on that point (as that was not the point I was covering in that post), so I'm not sure what you are talking about. ;)

for potential release from Hell.
Yes, to stand before God at the GWTj (pertaining to "the DEAD" of all times... the ones who were NOT "resurrected" with the saints, or the only ones who DIE during the MK age [having been born AND died in the MK age--that is, only the rebellious DIE in the MK, death will be much more rare, then])
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#53
I agree with you here. This is why we see (ultimately) "the sea gave up the DEAD"... "and death and hell gave up the DEAD" when "the DEAD [this is 'the DEAD' of all times], small and great stand before God" at the GWTj (this is to receive the final sentencing: cast into the lake of fire [where the devil/Satan is [will have just been cast into], and the beast and the false prophet are [and have been for the 1000 yrs], and it says of these three "they shall be..." (and note the time-related phrase I already posted about).] See also the phrase in Rev20:6b... and then see also Matthew 25:41 "having been prepared for the devil and his angels" which pertains also to the "ye cursed" of that passage [in the judgment of the [still-living] nations at the time of His Second Coming to the earth--when they "go away into everlasting punishment"--the sentencing of it, whereas the final carrying out of it takes place at the GWTj when "the DEAD" stand before God])
The GWT is the judgment seat of Christ. This is where every idle word faces the Light. Tormented "forever and ever" doesn't refer to future unending torture, but to suffering by having ones deeds exposed during their existence. See MadHermits op on the meaning of "forever".
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#54
You overlook the many NT texts implying that we survive death, fully conscious. The texts I quote clearly teach that and so do many others. I will make that case in great detail later, after I present all my biblical evidence for potential release from Hell.
The only text where conscious suffering immediately after death is taught is the rich man and Lazarus. And torment isnt even the point of that story.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#55
if anyone ceases to exist, they were never anything but an illusion to begin with.
 
R

rubberball

Guest
#56
The view that one will be released from the lake of fire is very humanistic. Hell is not about man but the holiness and justice of God. An infinite offense against the infinite being requires an infinite sacrifice. If no infinite payment is made to offset the infinite offense then all that remains is an infinite punishment.

Is. 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Rev. 20:10 and following...the lake of fire burns forever and ever. It is a logical interpretation but on safe interpretive rules that if it burns forever in verse 10 it also burns forever in verse 15.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
Gen 6:3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Gen 13:15for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.
Gen 43:9I will be a pledge of his safety. From my hand you shall require him. If I do not bring him back to you and set him before you, then let me bear the blame forever.
Exo 3:15God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Exo 12:14“This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
Exo 12:17And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.
Exo 12:24You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever'

Oh look its understood as forever, everywhere its used. Pretty good reason to assume it means forever in those verses.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
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#57
Hebrews 9:7 warns: "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27)." But the question arises, "What happens after that judgment?" Let's assume that Heaven and Hell exist in a timeless realm and in that sense are eternal. That still leaves open the question, "Do any receive another opportunity to repent and grow spiritually even in Hell? The biblical answer is a resounding Yes. The texts I have so far discussed imply this hopeful claim for "Ifeelike's family and, without apology I will continue toprovide a biblical perspective that gives him hope and prevents him from losing his faith, despite the callous desire of posters who would rather feel "right" than actually meet his need. So it's time to move on from Jesus and Peter to Paul.


Paul takes for granted God’s desire to save everyone, not just the elect: “God our Savior who desires everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).” This divine desire raises the question of whether God’s will can be permanently thwarted by our disobedience: "Who has resisted His will (Romans 9:20)?" Paul excludes the possibility of God abandoning His relentless pursuit of sinners in this bold declaration of divine providence: “God has imprisoned all in disobedient so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).” Here Paul considers the Fall from the perspective that it was always God’s plan to imprison us with a fallen nature that would make us disobey Him. Most Christians assume that God wanted Adam and Eve to resist the forbidden fruit, but this assumption absurdly implies that God didn’t want them to become “like God” and to become capable of discerning "good from evil (Genesis 3:22)." How, then, can God be just if our sinful nature is guaranteed by divine decree? Because God’s purpose is that all of us ultimate benefit from His mercy and grace! How tragic it is that so many Fundamentalist embrace that ghastly assumption that God stops loving and pursuing the sinner after death, thus defeating His redemptive purpose and will!

In that sense, God is not merely the potential Savior of all humanity; He is their actual Savior: “God who is the Savior of all people, especially (Greek: “malista”) of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)” “Malista” means “especially” in the sense of “more immediately” or “more certainly,” and leaves open the potential for the ultimate salvation of all.

Similarly, Romans 11:36 seals the implied promise that God “will have mercy on all” (11:32) with an assurance of cosmic restoration: "For from Him and through Him and back to Him are all things." Cosmic reconciliation may also be implicit in the pre-Pauline hymn in Colossians 1:15-20: “…in Him [Christ] all things hold together…Through Him God was pleased to reconcile all things to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross (1:20).”
It is against this background that the pre-Pauline hymn in Phil 2:6-11 is so relevant to the possibility of postmortem opportunities for repentance and salvation. So I will discuss that hopeful text in my next planned post.

NOTE: I am not a universalist in the sense that I believe all humanity will ultimately be saved; rather, I believe that God's love will never permanently abandon sinners after death and therefore they will always have the opportunity to repent. I repeat C. S. Lewis's profound pithy maxim: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."


an
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#58
Tormented "forever and ever" doesn't refer to future unending torture, but to suffering by having ones deeds exposed during their existence.
I don't believe I've seen a response by you regarding my Post #10 of this thread. There is a difference between the word "age [singular]" (which is always attached to time and history in this earthly existence) and the phrase "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (which phrase [put together THIS WAY] always refers to what we now call "eternity / forever")


[the GWTj follows all of that... meaning, follows the 1000-yr promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (promised to Israel, not to "the Church which is His body," to be clear)]

See MadHermits op on the meaning of "forever".
In his OP post, he only covered "age [singular]" (that which is attached to the earth), and not the phrase I presented in my Post #10.

What say you regarding the content of Post #10??
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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#60
maybe yes, maybe no. I am no Universalists, I am not sure whether or not all will be saved, but I do see a chance, see John 12:32. However, man's free will MUST be a part!