Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
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#41
“19 You believe that there is one God (presents the type of Faith held by hundreds of millions, but in which there is no saving grace); you do well (you think you do well!): the devils also believe, and tremble. (Simply believing there is a God says no more than what demons believe. Proper Faith will accept the Lord as one’s Saviour.)

JSM
It's time for you to apologize, not to post irrelevant, barbed platitudes.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
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#42
A dislike? Is that all you've got? I guess Swaggart has nothing suitable for you to cut and paste.
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
43
41
Merced, CA
#43
The cross was a mystery until after the resurrection. There is no such thing as “looking forward” to the cross. Those OT saints lived by their own faith in what God’s word that He gave them at that time. Obedience was necessary but even then salvation was not obtained.
Wait a second now.. So you mean to tell me that the obeyed God and did not obtain salvation? I beg to differ.

And I will share the following scripture and you can explain if you still believe they were not given salvation.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So these saints that were sleeping? Who were they and why did they obtain salvation? If they were already dead prior to Jesus dying on the cross?

Jesus yielded up the Ghost to the Father. He told the sinner on the cross today you will be in paradise. People argue Jesus didn't raise till 3 days later. But it appears Jesus went to the Father Immediately! And it was the body that was raised from the dead 3 days later.

Jesus went directly to the Father according to this account. And all the saints were raised from their graves. Seems like salvation for the saints. But correct me if im wrong, just show me scripture to back up your points.

I agree with Guojing. Salvation became easier than the OT covenant.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,537
3,502
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#44
So these saints that were sleeping? Who were they and why did they obtain salvation? If they were already dead prior to Jesus dying on the cross?

Jesus yielded up the Ghost to the Father. He told the sinner on the cross today you will be in paradise. People argue Jesus didn't raise till 3 days later. But it appears Jesus went to the Father Immediately! And it was the body that was raised from the dead 3 days later.

Jesus went directly to the Father according to this account. And all the saints were raised from their graves. Seems like salvation for the saints. But correct me if im wrong, just show me scripture to back up your points.
When did those OT saints receive salvation? Upon the resurrection of Christ. If they were saved in their lifetime they would have been immediately with the Lord upon death. They were not saved from their sin yet, but because of their obedience they were kept at rest in Abraham’s bosom until Christ paid for their sin.

Christ did not ascend to the Father until His resurrection on the third day. Paradise is Abraham’s bosom which was in the heart of the earth but now translated to heaven. Christ’s spirit was given back to the Father upon death, His soul went to the heart of the earth, and His body in the tomb.

John 20
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#45
Wait a second now.. So you mean to tell me that the obeyed God and did not obtain salvation? I beg to differ.

And I will share the following scripture and you can explain if you still believe they were not given salvation.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So these saints that were sleeping? Who were they and why did they obtain salvation? If they were already dead prior to Jesus dying on the cross?

Jesus yielded up the Ghost to the Father. He told the sinner on the cross today you will be in paradise. People argue Jesus didn't raise till 3 days later. But it appears Jesus went to the Father Immediately! And it was the body that was raised from the dead 3 days later.

Jesus went directly to the Father according to this account. And all the saints were raised from their graves. Seems like salvation for the saints. But correct me if im wrong, just show me scripture to back up your points.

I agree with Guojing. Salvation became easier than the OT covenant.
David definitely envied us, if you believe Romans 4 :ROFL:
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
553
182
43
41
Merced, CA
#46
When did those OT saints receive salvation? Upon the resurrection of Christ. If they were saved in their lifetime they would have been immediately with the Lord upon death. They were not saved from their sin yet, but because of their obedience they were kept at rest in Abraham’s bosom until Christ paid for their sin.

Christ did not ascend to the Father until His resurrection on the third day. Paradise is Abraham’s bosom which was in the heart of the earth but now translated to heaven. Christ’s spirit was given back to the Father upon death, His soul went to the heart of the earth, and His body in the tomb.

John 20
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
You originally said they did not obtain salvation. Im glad you were able to see they obtained salavtion.

As for the fact of ascending and descending I would need more verses then the one you provided. Jesus walked with the apostles for like 40 days before He ascended? I would need to study more on this topic to be definitive. Maybe someone has scriptures for this specific timeline of events after the cross.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,537
3,502
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#47
You originally said they did not obtain salvation. Im glad you were able to see they obtained salavtion.

As for the fact of ascending and descending I would need more verses then the one you provided. Jesus walked with the apostles for like 40 days before He ascended? I would need to study more on this topic to be definitive. Maybe someone has scriptures for this specific timeline of events after the cross.
They did not obtain salvation in their lifetime. Their sin needed to be dealt with.

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#48
I will ask the question again. Can a person be saved if their faith is in Jesus only and not in the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus?" Yes or no


 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
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#49
Can a person be saved if their faith is in Jesus only and not in the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus?"
It would seem if a person has faith in Jesus then they would have faith in the cross of Calvary.

For faith in Jesus is believing He is Lord and Savior, so they would have to believe in the cross for that is how He is Savior.

Now many people believe in Jesus as a good man, a good teacher in spiritual enlightenment, and some an ascended master, and avatar, but not as Lord and Savior.

So they do not place their faith in Jesus for salvation for they do not view Him as giving salvation, although they can view Him as a man that is a stepping stone to get them started, or add to their spiritual enlightenment.

But then these same people say you can also look to other people for the same thing, people that teach in spiritual enlightenment from other religions.

So no one can truly have faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior unless they have faith in the cross for that is how they receive that salvation which they are claiming.

No one says they have faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior apart from the cross, for everybody else will view Him different for they do not look to Him as the Savior, so they do not look to cross.

Although some people look to the cross, but interpret it differently than the act that gave salvation, but they do not have faith in Jesus for salvation.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#50
I will ask the question again. Can a person be saved if their faith is in Jesus only and not in the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus?" Yes or no
I will give you the response again: put your faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work, not in two sticks, and not in a mere metaphor.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,173
113
#51
I think people have to know what Jesus did on the cross to understand his resurrection.
There are many false gospels put there that claim Jesus didnt die for our sins, he was reincarnated, or some really good man, even muslims believe false things about Jesus.

So yea the cross is important, cant have a cross-less christianity. Its not so much the method of death or the cross itself, like the wood he was crucified on, but that he gave his life for us, his blood was poured out, that was the ransom that paid for our sin.

I think people arent quite getting that, like ok the israelites had to place the blood of the lamb, where...? On the DOORPOSTS. They could have put it on anywhere else? No because God specified it was to be placed on the doorposts. So the angel of death could passover them and they wouldnt. Be killed in the plagues.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
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#52
Unlike you, I will not claim you have not read the scriptures. Let me quote it to you 2 Sam 12 and you tell me how you interpret the words in bold, I will be most interested if there is one that will interpret the words differently. KJV.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

And in Romans 4, Paul stated

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

To me, David could not be talking about himself in this passage, because his adultery sin was imputed to him, leading to the death of his son. But he saw us being so blessed under the new covenant, that the Lord will never ever impute our sin to us.
Wow! And not we have to determine who brings on the results of our sin. Does it naturally happen as simply the way our world works or does God cause it to happen by His decision.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#54
Wow! And not we have to determine who brings on the results of our sin. Does it naturally happen as simply the way our world works or does God cause it to happen by His decision.
Are you unclear about this particular verse? As I have said, tell me how you would interpret this

15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
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#57
I will ask the question again. Can a person be saved if their faith is in Jesus only and not in the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus?" Yes or no

it's an illogical question. it's like 'do you still beat your wife?'

believing in a Messiah who did not do / does not do the work He did / does on the cross is believing in a false Messiah.

your question has the implicit premise that someone can put their faith in a false Christ and the true Christ simultaneously.
no; you cannot obtain salvation through a counterfeit Jesus.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
#58
can a person be saved by putting their faith in Jimmy Swaggart?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,173
113
#59
Whos jimmy swaggart, I mean, should we be listening or taking any noitce of him, if we already read the Bible and know what it says.

If hes your pastor or preacher, great, but I would rather go to scripture than just repeat what my pastor says, cos he doesnt talk about every single thing everyone needs to know. Hes only gives 20 minute sermons once a week! The Bible takes daily study. I mean all preachers must know the basics of the gospel, its a given.

Having said that, many false preachers water down the gospel or embellish it with their own ideas.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,761
113
#60
Can a person be saved if their faith is in Jesus only and not in the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus?"
Short Answer: No.

Everyone must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND His finished work of redemption in His death, burial, and resurrection. His death on the cross was the supreme sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. Each one must believe that their personal sins were laid on Him, and that Christ paid the full penalty for their sins. Each one must believe that when they truly repent of their sins and idols, then their sins are remitted (forgiven).

And it is the blood of Jesus Christ -- God's Son -- which has purchased our redemption and keeps on cleansing us from all our sins.


All of this must be presented in the preaching of the Gospel. Whether or not it is being done faithful by all preachers is a different matter.