Speaking in Tongues: Its Origins [Ancient and Modern], Purpose, and Power

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azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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#141
Wansvic said:
The following scripture concerns praying to God through the use of one's spirit. Notice Jesus stated in John that those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor 14:2

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:23-24
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Somewhat of a jump from "worship him in spirit and in truth" to speaking/praying in tongues.

This is a total non-sequitur, why would the woman at the well even think about "tongues" when the context is WHERE to worship.

(John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you people say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.")

Jesus was pointing to the destruction of the temple where the Jews worshiped which would be destroyed and replaced by a temple consisting of believers in Him.

(John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.)
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#142
Nov 27, 2018
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#142
azamzimtoti said:
Somewhat of a jump from "worship him in spirit and in truth" to speaking/praying in tongues.

This is a total non-sequitur, why would the woman at the well even think about "tongues" when the context is WHERE to worship.

(John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you people say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.")

Jesus was pointing to the destruction of the temple where the Jews worshiped which would be destroyed and replaced by a temple consisting of believers in Him.

(John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.)
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"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#144
Nov 27, 2018
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#144
UnderGrace said:
The "unknown language" in scripture is a reference to a foreign language, the church of Corinth, being a commercial hub of the ancient world, had a variety of languages being spoken.
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Notice the following scripture cannot be referring to a foreign language. The verse states that he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to God and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM:
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor 14:2
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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#145
azamzimtoti said:
Somewhat of a jump from "worship him in spirit and in truth" to speaking/praying in tongues.

This is a total non-sequitur, why would the woman at the well even think about "tongues" when the context is WHERE to worship.

(John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you people say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.")

Jesus was pointing to the destruction of the temple where the Jews worshiped which would be destroyed and replaced by a temple consisting of believers in Him.

(John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.)
Click to expand...
Speaking in tongues is done via the Spirit as the following verse indicates:
1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
 
wolfwint

wolfwint

Senior Member
#146
Feb 15, 2014
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#146
Wansvic said:
The apostles clearly spoke in tongues upon receiving the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. This is a pretty good indicator that praying/speaking in tongues is done via the Spirit. One must speak to oneself or aloud in order to be in prayer.

Why would Paul bother to take the time to inform/educate Christians about the specifics of Spiritual Gifts if they would not be used in ministry?
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At Pentecost it is written that the spoke the languages of the people from the different nations which were gathered in jerusalem. Special for the purpose of the coming of the Holy Spirit. Not an speaking which nobody is able to understand, as is it taught today. Btw many missionarys which were send out to the nations which languages they spoke by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (after azuza event)
But came home disappointet because on the field they could not understand their languages as they expect.
You cant tell me that praying in tongues is needed for to pray in the Spirit!
 
Kavik

Kavik

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#147
Mar 25, 2017
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#147
Wansvic said:
The verse states that he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to God and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM:
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This has been explained in light of real rational language(s) numerous times. In short, no one understands (lit. "hears with understanding") because no one at that particular gathering speaks his language; thus, he is speaking only to God.

As "UnderGrace" alluded to, Corinth was an international seaport on two ports - a veritable melting pot of languages and cultures. A place where everyday communication could be difficult at best. It's no wonder Paul needed to lay down some rules regarding foreign languages.
 
U

UnderGrace

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#148
#148
Wansvic said:
Speaking in tongues is done via the Spirit as the following verse indicates:
1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Click to expand...

In the "spirit" is old English for by his "breath" actually...... and the mysteries just means that if someone does not know the language it is a mystery.

It is unknown.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

Banned
#149
Apr 3, 2019
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#149
Wansvic said:
Speaking in tongues is done via the Spirit as the following verse indicates:
1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Click to expand...
Rather than admit you attempted to mix and match two unrelated verses John's "spirit and truth" with Corinthians you just doubled down and repeated the error.

If we follow your error we would have to conclude that only by speaking/praying in "tongues" would we be worshiping in spirit and truth.

This kind of "argument" not only shows desperation but a total misunderstanding of scriptural context.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#150
#150
azamzimtoti said:
Somewhat of a jump from "worship him in spirit and in truth" to speaking/praying in tongues.

This is a total non-sequitur, why would the woman at the well even think about "tongues" when the context is WHERE to worship.

(John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you people say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.")

Jesus was pointing to the destruction of the temple where the Jews worshiped which would be destroyed and replaced by a temple consisting of believers in Him.

(John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.)
Click to expand...

the actual non sequitur is you bringing up the woman at the well

the Holy Spirit descended upon believers on the day of Pentecost, which was a future event at that time

next you will tell us Jesus didn't speak in tongues so why should we?

I never give a thought to whether or not Jesus spoke in tongues but truth be told, the Bible does not say He didn't either :rolleyes: however Jesus is no longer on earth and He said He had to return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent

Jesus never indwelt ever believer nor does He now. little children will say they 'have Jesus in their heart' but as adults we understand we are filled with the Holy Spirit if we have invited Him in. for those who wish to dismiss tongues and or other gifts, it becomes convenient to state that everyone is baptized into the Holy Spirit but only those who are actually baptized into the Holy Spirit are as such. not everyone who says "Lord Lord" is actually saved

however, the time is now when we worship the Father wherever we are BECAUSE the Holy Spirit indwells believers and in some more than in others it seems
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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#151
#151
UnderGrace said:
In the "spirit" is old English for by his "breath" actually...... and the mysteries just means that if someone does not know the language it is a mystery.

It is unknown.
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the New Testament was not written in Olde English LOL!

perhaps you have the only copy?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#152
Jul 18, 2017
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#152
UnderGrace said:
In the "spirit" is old English for by his "breath" actually
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The words pneuma and ruach can be translated as either breath or spirit (depending on context). Nothing to do with old English. One of the objectives of the King James translators (whether good or bad) was to use a variety of words for the same Hebrew or Greek word. I believe that should not have been the case.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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#153
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#153
7seasrekeyed said:
the actual non sequitur is you bringing up the woman at the well

the Holy Spirit descended upon believers on the day of Pentecost, which was a future event at that time

next you will tell us Jesus didn't speak in tongues so why should we?

I never give a thought to whether or not Jesus spoke in tongues but truth be told, the Bible does not say He didn't either :rolleyes: however Jesus is no longer on earth and He said He had to return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent

Jesus never indwelt ever believer nor does He now. little children will say they 'have Jesus in their heart' but as adults we understand we are filled with the Holy Spirit if we have invited Him in. for those who wish to dismiss tongues and or other gifts, it becomes convenient to state that everyone is baptized into the Holy Spirit but only those who are actually baptized into the Holy Spirit are as such. not everyone who says "Lord Lord" is actually saved

however, the time is now when we worship the Father wherever we are BECAUSE the Holy Spirit indwells believers and in some more than in others it seems
Click to expand...
There is nothing wrong in what I posted, Jesus stated earlier of the living waters:

(John 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you had known the gift of God and who it is who said to you, 'Give me some water to drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.")

The living water has nothing to do with Corinthians speaking in tongues in the context of John and there is no reason to believe the woman understood living water with tongues or any other of the early church gifts

Just because those at Pentecost received the living water and spoke in tongues does not equate to Corinth only by a weak forced interpretation.

This is reading into scripture something that is not there.

Paul himself stated not all spoke in tongues, is that to say that they that do not are not "drinking" of the living water?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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#154
azamzimtoti said:
There is nothing wrong in what I posted, Jesus stated earlier of the living waters:

(John 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you had known the gift of God and who it is who said to you, 'Give me some water to drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.")

The living water has nothing to do with Corinthians speaking in tongues in the context of John and there is no reason to believe the woman understood living water with tongues or any other of the early church gifts

Just because those at Pentecost received the living water and spoke in tongues does not equate to Corinth only by a weak forced interpretation.

This is reading into scripture something that is not there.

Paul himself stated not all spoke in tongues, is that to say that they that do not are not "drinking" of the living water?
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well good then

in that case, there is nothing wrong with what the other fellow posted

just because you have a limited understanding , does not mean you can speak for everyone else. I am sure you would agree.

and again, sigh, the woman at the well did not know about tongues or any other gift because this event occurred PRIOR to tongues so that has as much to do with the op as grapes growing on a banana tree. God created things to reproduce after their own image...mankind marred that image so we have a mess without His Spirit

in plain words, Jesus was not even talking about ANY gift except the gift of eternal life IN Him. you conflate Acts and an event from the gospels. no wonder you do not understand what is being said

you call what some do reading into scripture

some here call what you do denying what scripture plainly states

all do not speak in tongues for sure and especially those who deny they even happen. :rolleyes:
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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#155
I didn't bring up Acts, you did in mentioning Pentecost. I was just referencing it.

Adios.
 
U

UnderGrace

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#156
Nehemiah6 said:
The words pneuma and ruach can be translated as either breath or spirit (depending on context). Nothing to do with old English. One of the objectives of the King James translators (whether good or bad) was to use a variety of words for the same Hebrew or Greek word. I believe that should not have been the case.
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Well is is connected to older style of expression, since spirit meaning breath can be found in various tests of prose and poetry.

Agree it should not have been the case.

Certainly this it is not with a capital "S' .... I think KJV got that right.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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#157
Apr 3, 2019
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#157
What I find interesting about Paul's discussion on tongues in Corinthians is that it seems he has not witnessed any of these "tongues" speakers at work as he states that he is hearing thing second hand.

(1 Cor 1:11 For members of Chloe's household have made it clear to me, my brothers and sisters, that there are quarrels among you.)
 
U

UnderGrace

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#158
#158
azamzimtoti said:
What I find interesting about Paul's discussion on tongues in Corinthians is that it seems he has not witnessed any of these "tongues" speakers at work as he states that he is hearing thing second hand.

(1 Cor 1:11 For members of Chloe's household have made it clear to me, my brothers and sisters, that there are quarrels among you.)
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A very important note indeed. :)
 
U

UnderGrace

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#160
7seasrekeyed said:
the New Testament was not written in Olde English LOL!

perhaps you have the only copy?
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Kindly do not respond to my posts....if I had wanted to refer to "Olde English" that is what I would have typed out ...old is an adjective.
I sincerely doubt you are more trained in English literature that I am.
Please put me on ignore.
 
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